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Question: are the weekly beginners' Lindy Hop lessons progressive? In other words, if I miss a lesson, am I going to be lost the next time? Progressive lessons would be more interesting and beneficial, of course, but I don't want to be completely confused if I can't always make it twice a week ... (and I would be -- learning new steps is the most difficult part for moi) ...
Beginner's Lessons are pretty much always the same, and very basic. The next step is the intermediate lessons, which are not completely progressive in nature, but it is very helpful to attend as many as possible.
Are there not going to be intermediate lessons while the Advanced classes are going on? I really need to learn some moves.
Tuesday we have beginner and intermediate lessons. We also have advanced west coast lessons, but these are "private" lessons to the first 3 couples only.
Saturdays we have our beginner lessons and we have the Master's class, which is intended for more advanced dancers.
Finrod:Are there not going to be intermediate lessons while the Advanced classes are going on? I really need to learn some moves.
You learn from the best.
If we keep having turnouts at the saturday night lessons like we have been having (hooray for Publicity!), then I think we need to organize some smaller beginner lindy classes... I was there watching (and helping, when I could) last Saturday, and it was a little chaotic. There were just too many beginners (and they arrived to sporadically) to keep it in just one huge group.
I did not see any rotation during the lesson last week as well as the week before.
I agree. We had a ton of new people and that is really exciting to see.
We (SKC Presidency) will do our best to make sure we have enough people there so that (hopefully) everybody will leave lessons having had a good time, a good experience and a desire to come back next week.
PS - Sounds like a campaign speech. Vote Buzz club president, YEAH!
Buzz:PS - Sounds like a campaign speech. Vote Buzz club president, YEAH!
dude. you're already in office.
Lol... gotta read the fine print before you sign....
what good is it to re elect a graduating president?
All valid points...
Hm...
Hmmmm.....
Yeah.
Buzz is running for the White House now?
Yep. Buzz for President of the United States
"This just in.... The lindy-hop has officially been made the National Dance. And in other, unrelated, news all ballroom dancers have summarily been put to death."
ElChuy:"... And in other, unrelated, news all ballroom dancers have summarily been put to death."
um. buzz is a ballroom dancer.
noooooo.... he was a ballroom dancer... now he's a lindy hopper with ballroom training... [Emoticon not found]
ElChuy:noooooo.... he was a ballroom dancer... now he's a lindy hopper with ballroom training... [Emoticon not found]
This is true.
Though if you consider a ballroom dancer as somebody who can dance ballroom, I am guilty. But I don't think that counts. Because I suppose I could kill somebody but that doesn't make me a murder.
No?
Buzz:ElChuy:noooooo.... he was a ballroom dancer... now he's a lindy hopper with ballroom training... [Emoticon not found]
This is true.
Though if you consider a ballroom dancer as somebody who can dance ballroom, I am guilty. But I don't think that counts. Because I suppose I could kill somebody but that doesn't make me a murder.
No?
ahhh. but if you have killed someone in the past, that does make you a murderer, no?
Though being a murderer and being a "ballroom dancer" is almost equally heinous, being a ballroom dancer is a state of mind and a personal identity, while being a murderer is a state of being resulting from a specific action.
So True. I myself have done ballroom in the past, but I have never considered myself a ballroom dancer. I just love dancing.
<rant>
[quote][cite] swingdoll:[/cite]I just love dancing.[/quote]
And that's really what matters.
Dance what you you enjoy. Don't dance what you don't enjoy.
My confessions:
- I sometimes like dancing a waltz.
- Or a fox trot...
- Or cha cha...
- Sometimes I even enjoy WCS.
- Sometimes I even enjoy blues (actual blues dancing).
- I don't always enjoy shaking violently and acting like an idiot on the dance floor (what I generally do in jams).
- There are even days I'd rather not lindy hop.
- There are times when people ask me to dance and mention something about how crazy I am on the dance floor, but at that particular moment I don't feel like being crazy. It's kinda like Jimi Hendrix. Jimi Hendrix would often play the guitar with his teeth at concerts. However, it became so popular that people would expect him to do it. He didn't like doing it when he had to though. He enjoyed it when it was something spontaneous... when he felt like it.
- as a natural follow up for the previous item: sometimes I want to have a really serious dance and concentrate on different aspects of the technique behind it all... or maybe concentrate on nothing at all, just plain be serious.
Yes, I know that several of my confessions will shock a lot of people, but won't shock those who know me well.
Your rants against ballroom were all in good fun, I just felt like ranting about it.
Anyway, I digress. Then again... this whole thread has digressed.
</rant>
popthestack:- Sometimes I even enjoy WCS.
YES!! I have proof now and there is nothing you can say to me when I play a westie song!
However, Ryan is right. I believe we should steer the topic of the conversation back to Beginner Lessons. What I would like to know is if it would be beneficial for us to have a Beginner Lesson on Tuesday that would go over more than just the basic. I imagine there are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable enough to dance in Ron's class, but have already learned the "basic lesson" 3 or more times. Are there such people? Would that be helpful? What do you all think?
Buzz:popthestack:- Sometimes I even enjoy WCS.
YES!! I have proof now and there is nothing you can say to me when I play a westie song!
Hey... sometimes is translated to mean "extremely rarely and almost always at an actual WCS venue." I won't stop complaining!
Buzz:However, Ryan is right. I believe we should steer the topic of the conversation back to Beginner Lessons. What I would like to know is if it would be beneficial for us to have a Beginner Lesson on Tuesday that would go over more than just the basic. I imagine there are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable enough to dance in Ron's class, but have already learned the "basic lesson" 3 or more times. Are there such people? Would that be helpful? What do you all think?
I would guess that there would be. Yes.
Beware of Long Ranting Post
Hmmmmm.... I think it would help if the beginner's lessons were more progressive. Maybe progressive isn't the right word...
Perhaps if there was one "basic" class that always taught the same basic-swingout-turn-stuff and another "beginners" class that would be simple but more progressive for the people that come back week after week (but are still fairly new).
The beginners could review and focus on improving fundemental technique with something extra (like more advanced technique one class, swing-ins and a couple new moves another, basic charleston another, sugar push and a couple more moves, simple stylings, etc.).
It doesn't matter what happens when it just needs to be an organized progression that is written down somewhere and consistently taught by the same few people so people can be introduced to the people and the dance further.
It would also help if we had some sort of workshop or seminar teaching the teachers of the classes how to teach. It seems like some people take the basic lessons multiple times and still don't "get it."
While there are some people who really just can't dance it seems like too many people are confused by the end of the basic lessons for it not to be partly the teachers's fault....
So I would stress:
1. Progression (have some lessons build on each other)
2. Organization (plan things like progression and who's teaching out months in advance)
3. Training (teachers need to be taught how to teach in a competent and friendly manner)
End of Long Ranting Post
Buzz:What I would like to know is if it would be beneficial for us to have a Beginner Lesson on Tuesday that would go over more than just the basic. I imagine there are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable enough to dance in Ron's class, but have already learned the "basic lesson" 3 or more times. Are there such people? Would that be helpful? What do you all think?
Only if you have
(1)"students" who come regularly and want to learn more, and
(2)( teachers who teach regularly enough to know what the "students" have learned before and what they need to work/build on.
Last Winter semetser, John and I (unofficially) taught more progressive lessons after the basic beginner lessons for the benefit of the same four or five people who came every week, but were too intimidated to go to Ron's class (especially when he had progressive lessons as well). Since we taught every week, we knew what we had taught previously, so we knew what needed to be reviewed before we moved on to new moves. Since we knew the regulars pretty well, we knew which moves and techniques were more appropriate for their level of dancing.
I don't know how effective progressive beginner's lessons would be if you didn't at least have some regular attendees, and having regular teachers is even better (hard to get sometimes, i know)
Finrod:Beware of Long Ranting Post
It would also help if we had some sort of workshop or seminar teaching the teachers of the classes how to teach. It seems like some people take the basic lessons multiple times and still don't "get it."
While there are some people who really just can't dance it seems like too many people are confused by the end of the basic lessons for it not to be partly the teachers's fault....
While I think both Finrod and Traci make some very valid points, I do not completely agree with this part of the post. I do think that sometimes (especially recently), the classes have been so huge that it is difficult to teach effectively; however, I have gone many times to the tuesday lessons only to see the beginners not really paying attention to the teachers, or practicing 1990's lifts ( [Emoticon not found] ), or doing their own thing in general. Additionally, the lindy hop basic is a little counterintuitive for a lot of people, and it generally takes civilians 2 or 3 weeks to really get it. While they may have the footwork memorized, the connection and physics of the move generally escape them for the first while.
ElChuy:Finrod:Beware of Long Ranting Post
It would also help if we had some sort of workshop or seminar teaching the teachers of the classes how to teach. It seems like some people take the basic lessons multiple times and still don't "get it."
While there are some people who really just can't dance it seems like too many people are confused by the end of the basic lessons for it not to be partly the teachers's fault....
While I think both Finrod and Traci make some very valid points, I do not completely agree with this part of the post. I do think that sometimes (especially recently), the classes have been so huge that it is difficult to teach effectively; however, I have gone many times to the tuesday lessons only to see the beginners not really paying attention to the teachers, or practicing 1990's lifts ( [Emoticon not found] ), or doing their own thing in general. Additionally, the lindy hop basic is a little counterintuitive for a lot of people, and it generally takes civilians 2 or 3 weeks to really get it. While they may have the footwork memorized, the connection and physics of the move generally escape them for the first while.
In our defense: we only did progressive basics on Tuesdays, when we had much smaller classes, and we only started doing them after the same people came every week and asked for things that would prepare them for the intermediate class, and we made sure that we always went over connection and technique in our beginner classes. And as far as I was concerned, if beginners weren't paying attention to me, I wasn't paying attention to them either. (John's a better person than me tho.) Once upon a time I tried to convince beginners that lifts weren't a good way to start out, and they looked at me like I was the world's worst fun-sucker, so I decided to give them lots of room and let them hurt themselves.
In a nutshell, I totally agree with your argument.
Beware of More Ranting
But the teachers need to keep at the people (I'm not saying harass the peeps just keep them focused) and NOT let them do their own thing... It's so much more fun (and safe) to do things the right way. If people really want to learn they can join the class but if not... they should be invited to leave.
It pisses me off when I see people not paying attention and the teacher does't demand the respect he/she deserves. The class results in chaos.
There need to be more instructors so people can receive more personalized attention and learn more efficiently. This way when there are large numbers of people we can handle the capacity and when there are less people they (the students) can learn more.
more instructors = smaller classes = less chaos and crazy "i'm gonna do my own BS dancing" = more enjoyable and less stressful experience for everyone
End of More Ranting
Boy do I like this thread.. I have so much to say about this topic I'm not really sure where to begin.. I will start by saying that evryone so far has a valid point. I think a good place to start is by helping some of the teachers learn how to teach, and have the students understand the basic concepts that go with the basic swing out.. Anyway I don't want to go off on the technical aspect of the dance.. But if anyone ever wants to know more just ask me I am more than happy to share.. I spent a year breaking down the dance to its core and building it back up from its simplistic movements to its many decorative branches in order to have a better understanding of it... And I realized I was barely starting to chip away... Blah blah blah.
Finrod:Beware of More Ranting
It pisses me off when I see people not paying attention and the teacher does't demand the respect he/she deserves. The class results in chaos.
End of More Ranting
I totally agree, but at the same time I think that respect is earned, not demanded, and that the respect of the students who really want to learn could easily be lost if the instructor demands the attention of the few who are more interested in doing their own thing. It's a tough call, and from the sounds of things, classes have gotten a lot bigger since I moved. More instructors would be great, but I think it's hard to find enough instructors who are willing to volunteer an hour or more of their time on a Tuesday or a Saturday when homework or a hot date is often much more appealing. So...bottom line is I don't think you can make anyone pay attention, even if you have a thousand great instructors.
well put
You're right right traci demand was a poor word (Yesterday was kind of rough I apologize for being so frustrated). Respect has to be earned which is why the teachers need to be more competent.
The current lessons are ok... but why should we settle for mediocrity and not constantly try to improve our lessons?
Let me be blunt and extremely pessimistic for a moment... this club has ridden the wave of the Swing Revival. It started (the SKC) in the 90s as the Swing Revival started and the Revival is now in its post mortem contractions. The people who are seniors now were freshman after the revival had already reached its height. If the club is unable to get some new blood it will die (maybe not die but limp on) just like it started 10 years ago.
Now don't get me wrong I'm just painting worst case doom and gloom vision here... I do have hope.
People have talked on this forum about making this club one of the most popular clubs on campus like it was a few years ago. This vision can be brought about if only we stand up and grasp it and I think the way to do it is to organize ourselves and improve our teaching and friendliness. We need to open up to the community because we have something special to offer people.
<president's declaration> [Emoticon not found]
Ok, time for my two cents. About students not paying attention in class, this happens. I do believe however, that most of the time it is because the instructor has either digressed into helping out individuals, just not speaking loud enough, or is not going with the pace of the class.
Helping out individuals during class is a no-no for me. When that happens, things go downhill fast. If somebody is struggling, I will tell them to come see me after the class and I will help them out, [b]BUT I DO NOT[/b] stop the whole class to help them out. The other points are just matters of good rhetoric and can be taught to our teachers.
Here is my question: are we interested in having a Master's class targeted at our teachers only, with the purpose of teaching how to teach?
Here is my next question: who is willing to sacrifice their time to become a good teacher?
And my final question: do we want to have another group on Tuesdays that will teach progressive, basic material? And if so, who will teach it?
</president's declaration>
Would this be a Lindy-teachers training or something all the teachers could benefit from?
Also, on the progressive teaching thing, I tried to organize progressive lessons on Tuesday nights several times. The progressive Intermediate Lindy class was popular enough to keep going for a while, but it died when we started having multiple intermediate classes. The progressive West Coast Swing classes died before they began. I tried to do them for several months,even after dumbing it down to a 2-week course, and it still failed due to a lack of interest/lack of student dedication; I quit trying to make classes progressive a number of months ago.
I think Ron's classes are still progressive though--they were last semester. But for the most part, the students are too slippery around here to do progressive classes. Beginning Lindy students come thinking they can comprehensively learn the entire dance in 15 minutes. You can try to do the progressive thing, but I'm a little skeptical.
Finrod:This vision can be brought about if only we stand up and grasp it and I think the way to do it is to organize ourselves and improve our teaching and friendliness. We need to open up to the community because we have something special to offer people.
Sorry to take a tangent seperate from the master's class (etc...) discussion above, but just wanted to add that one of my first partners who helped start USU's club (back before Jazzy J started dancing :O ) was coming to the Y's club last semester quite frequently. She's had pretty consistent problems with the club members and teachers talking down to her during lessons and the dance. She is far from a poor dancer, just isn't up-to-date with the current "style". She also doesn't want to play the clique game ("good" dancers dance up front, newbie/"street swingers" in back). Part of it is her perspective and perception, but as with all social organizations these complaints are going to come up. The question to be addressed IMO is how do you improve the above mentioned "friendliness" and reduce the clique-y-ness. I don't have a problem with this at the Y's club, but other people definitely do. What general or specific ideas do you guys have?
In addition, my friend is not the only veteran dancer who might want to come back dancing (Jason's another example). What could bring them back occasionally? You guys have quite the legacy; I've always been quite jealous of it. (e.g. Kacy Humberstone lives in south Salt Lake now.)
I'd be willing to learn how to teach.
I think it would be better if the more veteran members of the club taught the basic lessons more often because the have greater mastery of the principles of the dance.
As for the clique thing... the people in the clique need to come out of their swing safety shell and talk to and befriend everyone else. Being clique-y is bad. It's ok to have a group of close friends but to exclude others and not try to befriend them is something entirely different.
When we say dancing is about socializing we don't mean "talk to the people you know and are already friends with." We mean meet new people and expand our circle of friends. As the circle of friends expands so does our influence on campus.
When I first came last semester I can only think of a handful of people that came up to me introduced themselves. I was the one that had to go around and introduce myself to everyone and I didn't feel particularly welcome and I still don't.
Now granted this is partly my fault being a social coward but it isn't entirely. It's intimidating when everyone is so much better than you and they aren't exactly going out of their way to step down from their pedestal and help you learn.
Well said! However, I have some disagreement with the "pedestal" part. I don't think that most people necessarily put themselves on a pedestal. I just think that they don't think much about it. At the same time, I entirely agree that we need to get outside of ourselves more. On the other hand, there are those who may come off as putting themselves on a "pedestal" when really they're not meaning to but are simply there to dance and they accidentally give that impression.
Finrod, you mentioned that it's a two-way street, and I agree. Both parties (new dancers, to the scene or to the dance, and "veterans"[Emoticon not found] need to take the initiative to step out of their safety zones and meet new people. All I can say is that talking about won't do any good. Just keep doing what you're donig, and hope that everyone else is doing what they should be doing, and you'll feel accepted sooner than you know. Talking online really helps. I quit dancing the first time because I thought the "good dancers" were too clique-y, and I danced for 2 years before I really got to be friends with anyone who danced because I was too shy. The only reason why I got to know people is because I started talking online, and I started getting more involved with the dancing (going to Tuesday night lessons, other venues, volunteering with the club). Your reward is almost entirely dependent on the amount of work you put into it. [Emoticon not found]
Finrod:Now granted this is partly my fault being a social coward but it isn't entirely. It's intimidating when everyone is so much better than you and they aren't exactly going out of their way to step down from their pedestal and help you learn.
Yeah, I was a social coward for like 10 seconds when I first started dancing 9 months ago. Then I realized that I should not be afraid to ask a 100 pounds girl to dance. What's she going to do? Round-house kick to my face (refer to sig)? [Emoticon not found]
geek4life:Yeah, I was a social coward for like 10 seconds when I first started dancing 9 months ago. Then I realized that I should not be afraid to ask a 100 pounds girl to dance. What's she going to do? Round-house kick to my face (refer to sig)? [Emoticon not found]
I dunno, I think Kristen's mom has like a black belt in multiple martial arts. Watch out! [Emoticon not found]
swingdoll:Well said! However, I have some disagreement with the "pedestal" part. I don't think that most people necessarily put themselves on a pedestal. I just think that they don't think much about it. At the same time, I entirely agree that we need to get outside of ourselves more. On the other hand, there are those who may come off as putting themselves on a "pedestal" when really they're not meaning to but are simply there to dance and they accidentally give that impression.
Too true.... I honestly make an effort to single out as many beginners as I can to dance with, while still having fun myself. I just started lindy hopping last semester, so I understand very well how intimidating the dances can be and how frustrated a beginner can feel at his or herself for not knowing more, or not getting the beat, or whatever. However, it is hard to strike a balance between dancing with and encouraging the follows who are off to the side and are obviously just beginning and dancing with those who are more advanced who help me to be a better dancer and who I can have a little more fun playing around with to the music. Some nights it's not that I want to be a snob, I just feel like I want to dance to the best of my ability the whole night, or that there are a lot of follows who I am friends with and already enjoy dancing with that I haven't seen in a dance or two. When all the follows I know are there, just dancing with each of them once usually takes up a good portion of the night. Additionally, while there is a lot of emphasis (and rightly so) on beginner leads being tiring to dance with because of arms being pulled out of sockets, I have to say that dancing with a beginner follow is also more tiring than a more knowledgeable one because even with doing a light lead one has to expend more mental and physical energy making sure the lead is as clear as possible so she can be comfortable dancing with you. Now that being said, I truly do feel bad for the girls that I see that come to the dance, obviously like the music, and spend the whole night sitting down except for two or three songs. Maybe if we each adopted a personal ratio of songs to dance with a beginner? I usually have as a goal to dance a third of the total songs with someone I don't know or someone I know to be beginning.
You just started dancing last semester? Wow. I figured you'd been dancing for a lot longer than that. That's impressive. You could be the poster child for how fantastic lessons are. [Emoticon not found]
Sweet!! Go Thomas!!.. on the progressive lesson bit, i have to say that I do still hold progressive lessons but i always review the basic.. and do you know why?? It's not really the faul of the beginner lesson instructots, it is mostly as it was previously posted, people who try and rush the basics so they can get to the moves, but that is what evryone does.. well at least the majority of us, I know I did when i first started.. I could not dance on the beat for the life of me. I mean I had plenty of "moves" and style and rhythm.. I just could not start on the beat at all.. and I was thinking to myself "basics! pfft.. who needs them" well obviously I did, hence why I really push for them now.. So although my lessons are progressive I always begin with concepts of lead and follow and how they apply to the social aspect of the dance and how it is the core of the swing out, swing in and turns.. I do try and make it interesting by teaching patters and movements that are fun to do and are using the concepts I am teaching so hopefully everyone is happy.. Now if you guys would like to have a teachers class I would be very happy to volunteer as someone who can help you teach one of those classes, as I know there are plenty of great teachers in Utah who would be just as if not more qualified than me to teach that class, but I believe a teachers class would help some of teh teachers out there who may not know how to teach. When I first started teaching I did not know how.. I too a master's class from some of the Swedish pros, and Steven Mitchell as well.. they helped me become a better teacher.
traci:You just started dancing last semester? Wow. I figured you'd been dancing for a lot longer than that. That's impressive. You could be the poster child for how fantastic lessons are. [Emoticon not found]
Awww.... thanks traci.... [Emoticon not found]
I'd just like to say that I really like your lessons Ron... you teach in a very patient and professional manner. Thank you.
Boogaloo:Now if you guys would like to have a teachers class I would be very happy to volunteer as someone who can help you teach one of those classes...
i'd like to learn to teach. i'm pretty crap at it.
I would be willing to learn to teach, I just don't know if I can ever reliably take a tuesday class, because I actually have a psych class that goes until 7:30 on tuesdays. The fact that I don't go to it most weeks doesn't exclude the possibility that I might have to in the future. However, I guess I always could teach a class on saturday nights... hrmmm...
Definately try teaching. Your dancing improves when you teach, because you're forced to focus on your own movement, especially when people taking the class ask you questions you've never thought of before or point out your own bad technique. [Emoticon not found]
traci:Definately try teaching. Your dancing improves when you teach, because you're forced to focus on your own movement, especially when people taking the class ask you questions you've never thought of before or point out your own bad technique. [Emoticon not found]
WHAT?! My technique is perfect!