spencewebb:

other than that, two thumbs definitely down for the event as a whole, for the swing house residents allowing alcohol in and to be consumed during the "gala", which I understood to be a BYU club associated event.

No, not associated with a BYU event. Just telling Grant good bye.

Love you Grant!! Be safe and have an amazing time!!!!!

*Muah*

I second what Traci said

spencewebb:

traci:

spencewebb:

for the swing house residents allowing alcohol in and to be consumed during the "gala"

dood. two people brought alcohol. two. and they brought like two beers with them. it wasn't like they set up a full bar in the kitchen, nor did they try to get you drunk or even offer alcohol to anyone. they know that mormons don't drink alcohol and respect that. not a big deal. and this whole "let's put people down 'cause they drink beer or 'allow' people to drink in their house" thing isn't a great way to make friends.

and it was a fantastic party. good dancing, fun games, lots of people. if the beer thing got you down, there was plenty of good things going on that should outweigh the bad.

please see http://honorcode.byu.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3604&Itemid=4643

Abstain From Alcoholic Beverages, Tobacco, Tea, Coffee, and Substance Abuse

"The Word of Wisdom is a covenant, conformity to which assures both strength of body and a special spiritual endowment" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 167). President Stephen L. Richards, a counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, noted that: "The Word of Wisdom is spiritual. It is true that it prohibits the use of deleterious substances and makes provision for the health of the body. But the largest measure of good derived from its observance is in increased faith and the development of more spiritual power and wisdom. Likewise, the most regrettable and damaging effects of its infractions are spiritual. Injury to the body may be comparatively trivial to the damage to the soul in the destruction of faith and the retardation of spiritual growth" (Conference Report, April 1949, p. 141).

Abstain From Alcoholic Beverages

Any consumption of alcohol, in any form, is a breach of the Honor Code. The following are examples of serious noncompliant behavior related to alcohol use:
Being present where alcohol is being consumed by others
Personal consumption of alcohol socially or as a consequence of alcoholism
Furnishing alcohol to others
Having alcohol in one's apartment
Honor Code Office courses of action are influenced by the level of use or involvement, the extent to which the behavior is known by others, and the willingness of the students to change.

NOTE WHERE IT SAYS
"Being present where alcohol is being consumed by others"
"Having alcohol in one's apartment"
NOTE THAT THESE ARE REFERRED TO AS "serious noncompliant behavior."

if you don't have the balls to ask somebody to keep the beer or whatever outside, change your name to "Provo/Orem Swing Kids."
and to h*** with myself for attempting to fulfill a commitment I made to the school. my bad "dood"

I don't care about the debate going on, but please keep your language clean. There are BYU students here. Kthnxbye.

Please see:

http://honorcode.byu.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3602

"Profanity and other crude expressions

BYU faculty, staff, and students should avoid swearing in speech and writing; coarse expressions derived from profanity; displaying of pictures, posters, and other forms of expressions which are crude or suggestive; and expressions that depend upon allusions to crudity for effect."

And yes, "hell" counts

Wow, things certainly have changed since I left... interesting thread.

Could everyone take a deep breath? I love you all! Can I offer to serve as a mediator??

Focusing on positive things:
Grant, so sorry I missed the shindig; it was a bit of a flight to attend! Love ya and miss ya - make us all proud [Emoticon not found]

spencewebb:

Abstain From Alcoholic Beverages, Tobacco, Tea, Coffee, and Substance Abuse

"The Word of Wisdom is a covenant, conformity to which assures both strength of body and a special spiritual endowment" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 167). President Stephen L. Richards, a counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, noted that: "The Word of Wisdom is spiritual. It is true that it prohibits the use of deleterious substances and makes provision for the health of the body. But the largest measure of good derived from its observance is in increased faith and the development of more spiritual power and wisdom. Likewise, the most regrettable and damaging effects of its infractions are spiritual. Injury to the body may be comparatively trivial to the damage to the soul in the destruction of faith and the retardation of spiritual growth" (Conference Report, April 1949, p. 141).

Yikes! I wish i had read this thread before having my morning cup of coffee! Why didn't you warn me earlier Spence? Now my soul is irreparably damaged!! I guess now I'm a spiritual retard, like the nice people at the conference say i am. Bummer.

Seriously man, don't be such a douchebag. People like you are the reason so many people don't like Mormons. Thankfully there are many more level headed mormons in the swing community than there are of people like you. They're willing to accept people for who they are and can be friends with people from different cultures and are totally cool. Why can't you be like that? We can be friends, right? Don't worry, I won't tell your bishop you hang out with scum like me. [Emoticon not found]

Maybe if you'd relax and get your head out of your a$$, you'd realize that people who consume alcohol, coffee, etc can be good people too. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, what i'm saying is you have to get past your ridiculously shallow habit of judging people and learn to cope with the real world.

Back to the original topic:
Sounds like it was a great party, I'm sorry I wasn't there. Grant, have a great time on your travels, and stay safe!

I <3 Tara.

Hmm, so I have a question: Was there any actual fuss about the alcohol at the party? Or is it all just the post-party online discussion? I left way early, so I didn't get to witness anything there... but was there anything to witness?

Spencer, you have made this conversation a public dialog. While I originally intended this response as a private message, I feel that it would be best shared with all parties now involved. None of this message is intended to imply or suggest that I don't care about the Honor Code, or that I don't care what happens in my house. I do. But I seem to have a hard time convincing you that I care, and that I'm sorry about what happened. So I will address this and some of the other issues you brought up.

spencewebb:

This message was more to you and the swing house residents personally anyway.

I realize this. That's why I was somewhat surprised to learn of your disapproval on the forum. If your issue is with me and the swing house residents, perhaps it would be a good idea to talk with us about it.

I'm sorry I had to write long about this and vent, but I'm really irritated at you for letting this happen and not caring.

I'm sorry that you feel like I don't care. I do. What can I do to help you understand that I do?

It seems like we don't disagree that what happened is wrong, rather we disagree about the way in which I handled things. Tim isn't a member of the church. He recently moved to Utah, and is still getting used to the Mormon culture. I didn't feel that it would be beneficial to anyone involved to make a scene out of things, embarrassing him in the process. If he had been offering alcohol to others, or had been in any way disruptive, I would have not had any qualms about confronting him at the time. But because he was discreet and minding his own business, I decided that it would be better to talk with him privately about the situation and ask him to drink elsewhere. This has been done. He now understands and agrees to comply with this aspect of the honor code.

sdswingr:

Yet another reason why I am not a Mormon.
I like my Christian ideals just fine.

This comment, this reaction, is exactly what I was trying to avoid. Thanks Spence.

That you marketed Grant's event via the text updates of the "BYU Swing Kids" as a club associated event... ESPECIALLY BECAUSE YOU MARKETED IT AS A CLUB ASSOCIATED EVENT.

I didn't intend for it to come across as a club associated event. In fact, I need to be more careful about how I communicate.

http://textmarks.com/swingkids:

Alerts about Lindy Hop, swing, balboa, charleston and blues in the Provo, Utah area.

I felt that made it clear that these text messages wouldn't just be about BYU events, but would also be about other swing dance opportunities in Provo and the surrounding area. How can I make it more clear? I feel that it would be a waste of a great resource to only tell people about BYU events.

I do make a conscious effort to only send messages about good, uplifting, swingin' events to the text message list. I don't tell anyone about lindy bombing the Zanzibar, for example. But I do send out messages about good opportunities for dancing that aren't directly related to or sponsored by BYU Swing Kids, but which will be beneficial for club members to attend. I plan to organize a couple of carpools to the U's swing club weekly dance during the course of the summer. When ULX rolls around again, I'll send out text messages about registration drives. These will not be official BYU events, but I will most likely send out a text message letting people know they're happening.

So with you, Justin, I'm presented with an ethical dilemma. I hate what you guys did Saturday, letting alcohol in and not caring. I really do. I hate even more that you haven't apologized or addressed the issue, and are hiding it like it was something to be covered up. This presents a problem for BYU Swing Kids, and it's something that Administration would be interested as h*** to know about.

Again, I don't know how to help you understand that I agree with you. How many times, and in how many ways can I tell you that I did and do care, and that I handled the situation as I saw fit? I have apologized to everyone who has expressed concern. I have apologized to you. I have addressed the issue, albeit in a somewhat less confrontational and far less public manner than you have. I have not tried to hide or cover up anything.

Granted, I did remove the first thread you started on this topic. At the time I sent you a private message inviting you to discuss things with me. I did so because, as you said, this issue was with myself and the other swing house residents, not with everyone. In the future, if you have questions or concerns about my actions, please inform me of them.

So, as president, because I still have some confidence in your ability to manage subsequent situations, I suggest that you figure something out and ensure this doesn't happen again. I'd hope that you'd apologize for it.

I apologize again. I apologize to you, and to anyone else whose soul was put in danger on Saturday night. This was never my intention. I apologize to anyone who has become involved in this dialog. I apologize to Tim and his wife for letting them become the subject of a public argument when the issue could have been easily resolved with a phone call or two. I apologize to anyone in the club who has lost confidence in my ability to resolve concerns that arise. I will try to do better in the future.

Because, again, I'm presented with an ethical dilemma, even if I'm not irritated at you guys, who should know better. So I either have to post and repost the same thread about this over and over, get some reassurance that this won't ever happen again, or let the BYU take it's own action, if it feels any is warranted - and maybe it won't care because no football players were involved.

The incident you are alluding to involved several BYU football players (a.k.a. BYU students) consuming alcohol. It also involved drunkenness. It also involved rape. I hardly think you can compare this to two non-LDS, non-BYU students drinking a small amount of alcohol at a private party held in non-BYU approved housing.

BYU does care about Honor Code violations. However, they tend to resolve them privately, rather than opening them to public debate. In fact, the only Honor Code infractions they discuss publicly are those involving high profile students (like football players), and all that communication comes through a specific BYU administrator. Note that they are still discreet in what they reveal. They have refused to reveal the identities of most BYU athletes accused of Honor Code violations until after the review process was complete.

Perhaps we can take a lesson from this.

I don't even want to be where alcohol is served or consumed.

Good restaurants in Provo/Orem you should probably avoid:

1. Asuka
   Bombay House
   Carrabas
   Chili's
   China Lily
   Goodwood
   La Dolce Vita
   Los Hermanos
   Olive Garden
   Osaka
   Ottavios
   Red Robin
   Restaurant Roy
   Saigon Cafe
   TGI Fridays

This list is by no means comprehensive, but should give you a good start.

Rename the club the provo swing kids club and do whatever the h*** you want. Disassociate from BYU and I don't care what you do. in that event, the rest of us who piss and moan about alcohol at dance "club" associated events can go cry about it because there's nothing we can do, and in that event why should we care, we would have KNOWN what to expect and just chosen to not dance at the swing house.

Since Grant's goodbye party (and any other swing dance event which doesn't happen on BYU campus) is not associated with or endorsed by BYU or the Swing Kids Club, I doubt that this will be necessary.

I will try to make it more clear in the future that not every swing dance event I tell you about is a club activity. Unfortunately, I'm usually struggling to fit the time and place in a text message, so I don't have room to affix a standard disclaimer to the bottom of each one. I welcome any suggestions in this regard.

I'm telling you this because I'd like you to understand that I, too, disapproved of the incident. My response wasn't the same as yours would have been, but I'm asking you to try to understand my reasons for that, and to respect my decision.

So, I have a question......the fact that I asked if anyone wanted to go to Zanzibar tonight.....does that make me evil? [Emoticon not found]

Notice the edit for crude language on the first post. My apologies.

The attempt was to come across as a more regular guy that's cool enough to slide across the rules a little bit, as a symbol of we all strive to keep our commitments in marriage, community and civic duty, and religious obligations, but often make mistakes or don't care about one or two things. see the salad bar analogy at the end of this post.

Allow me to respond to the posts one by one, as I believe it will help underscore my point to Justin and Tom, additionally.

gthing: your point is very well taken. you're right. Adjusted and won't happen again.

sdswingr: I'm not accusing anybody of being a "bad mormon." Please point out where I am doing so. I think you may have misread what I wrote. Read it again, and correct me if I'm calling anybody a "bad mormon" implicity or explicity.
The Honor Code at BYU is not formulated to target and build abstinance from behavior that LDS doctrine or BYU Administration believes is intrisically "bad" or a sin (example: growing a beard, wearing a beard during one's enrollment at BYU, having sideburns below the ears, entering the room of a member of the opposite sex during your enrollment at BYU). The University trains us in this regard. These Honor Code Guidelines are a way to set ourselves apart for its own sake. We take things that might be a good idea, or that might put us in a situation that could be dangerous to our spiritual growth. COULD be, NOT INTRISICALLY bad, or terrible, or sinful.

In the case of alcohol, all the health studies I've ever read, from empirical scientists at reputable universities, show moderate "glass a day" drinking of alcohol, in wine, to actually be favorable to good health. Some people, including the greater part of my distant Cherokee cousins, as well as many other Native American tribes, are susceptible to alcoholism. Alcoholism is rampant in my family, and those of other close friends, and has destroyed lives and families. This is a known fact, that alcohol CAN be a dangerous addictive substance, but there is no evidence that drinking is INTRINSICALLY "bad."
LDS Doctrine does not believe in drinking of alcohol, tea, or coffee, because we believe revelation came from God telling us to not do it, similar to why the Law of Moses forbids eating of certain "unclean" animals. Why are those animals unclean? Again, no instrinsic health issues, so far as I know, they were simply told not to do it.
Caffiene is not, by the doctrine I've been taught in the LDS religion, explicitly forbidden. I don't drink it anyway, for personal choice. I wasn't chugging soda, I drank only water while I was at Grant's Goodbye deal.

As students, we give our word of honor to our ecclesiastical leader (for mormon and non-mormon students) and to the university to follow ALL the guidelines of the honor code, as a commitment to ourselves and the university.
The Honor Code guidelines about alcohol is not a vindication against you, or against drinking. What you need to realize, is that by THOMAS, JUSTIN, and whomever else living in the house allowing you and your wife to bring in alcohol INSIDE, they've violated their commitment to the honor code, because they are STUDENTS CURRENTLY ENROLLED AT BYU, whether they live at home, in a foreign country, or in "approved housing."
Additionally, by my being present AT the swing house while you were consuming alcohol, I've also violated my OWN commitment to the honor code to not be PRESENT at a place where alcohol is being consumed. I expect every other student to committed to living the honor code, just like I am and the football players at BYU are.

So why did I go to this event? Because I believed it to be a BYU club associated event, having received a text update. Check the swingkids.info mainpage info on text message updates, as well as the textmarks.com page for swingkids. The language, unless changed by Justin after last night, directly associates the text message updates with last minute room changes and BYU club associated events.

So by having alcohol, you haven't done anything wrong. We BYU students on the other hand, have all just made ourselves out to again be spineless hypocrites. The Honor Code is not Mormon doctrinal Law. It's a unique university policy. Whether we are athiest, denominational Christians, or Islam, we have made hypocrites of OURSELVES as BYU students, not as "mormons."
So please don't take this personal, I don't intend it to be, and I apologize for not being more clear in my first posting.

Buzz: please read the above about the irrelevance of it being "BYU approved housing."
The reason I brought this up on the forums, is because, having actually read the honor code, I'm obligated to inform the BYU students (put emphasis on students ONLY, whose obligation it is) who haven't actually read the honor code they agree to abide by, that this event presents a problem for ALL of us. Not because there were minors there too, not to vindicate the non-byu non-lds people there, but because BYU students have an obligation in this regard, SPECIFICALLY the BYU swing kids club president/officers.
Additionally, because I was hypocritical enough to not say anything in a polite, friendly, and non-judgmental way during the event, this incident reflects poorly on myself. So I have the obligation to let everybody know now, that I apologize for not realizing this was an honor code violation. My first thoughts were, is that alcohol I smell? That's alcohol. Well, it's their house. Is that allowed? And the whole weekend feeling sick and guilty because I broke my commitment to the honor code, and referred dozens of new students at BYU to the swingkids website and text updates, and if any of them subscribed and came to events, they'd have been in that atmosphere also. I personally don't like the atmosphere that surrounds alcohol. That's my personal bias, because I have alcoholics in my family. That's why I came to BYU. I expected the students to actually do what they say they'd do, in not allowing alcohol in their apartments.
So because I personally was involved, and because minors and other BYU students were involved, this is a problem that needs to be brought up with everybody, and the forum is an efficient way to reach people who were there.

Sway post #1: *deep breath*

Tommy: see the paragraphs to Buzz and sdswingr. To maintain my own personal integrity, and not be a hypocrite, I HAVE to try to live up to the standards I said I'd live up to at BYU. Because I reflected poorly on myself and BYU by being at that party and doing nothing, I feel I made a mistake and need to make up for it.
I'd rather be ostracized from all of you, take the reactionary criticism, SOME of it justly due, and never dance again and at least feel like I was striving to do the right thing and stand up for something I believe in, then scrimp about in wretched cowardice standing for nothing.
Again, this issue doesn't generally apply to anybody who is NOT a student at BYU (except that you understand that a student currently enrolled at BYU attending your event where there is alcohol consumed is violating their own honor code, whether or not you think it's stupid). The only thing I'd ask, is that we either change the text updates info to "PROVO" swing kids, and not associate it with the BYU club for this reason. If there's going to be alcohol, I don't have to go. You can all do as you please, I have no way to efficaciously say to you that there's anything wrong with drinking alcohol, when you don't have an obligation not to.
This is a matter of integrity. We as BYU students promise to do something, and should strive to fulfill it, and stand for what we say we will. I'd rather my non-LDS friends know that I'm going to keep promises I make to the school so that they'll know that when I make promises and commitments to them, or my job, my community, or my wife and kids, that I'm going to take them all seriously and try to live up to them.
And when I mess up, TELL ME. I'd appreciate it.

Sway #2: I'm repeating, the BYU text update information made me think that the events marketed by texting would be by BYU standards. I've asked Justin to make the appropriate changes.
You're points are very well taken. We are functional adults who can make our own decisions, but we can't escape consequences of those decisions. Again, and I'll put it in caps so everybody notices it: THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE BYU HONOR CODE ARE NOT RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENTS. THEY ARE THE REQUIREMENTS OF AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION FOR ADMITTANCE AND CONTINUING ENROLLMENT. Whether it's abstain from illegal drugs or wear red t-shirts on tuesdays, we're required BY CONTRACT to abide by the honor code, regardless of our personal beliefs or religion.

sarsaparilla: no fuss at the party, so far as I know, as implied before. it just bothered me, and by conscience I had to try to stand up for myself and not be such a spineless hypocrite

and finally, to bobthecow and elchuy:
I'm perceiving you as leaders in the house, and as leaders of the swing kids club at BYU. The problem we have, with allowing these things to happen, and not treat it like it's an issue with the honor code, is that EVERYBODY THERE and who hears about this type of thing gets the wrong impression and an increasingly falsified idea of who we are - not as LDS members, but as BYU students - and what the honor code is, and what its purpose is. Subsequently, the less seriously we perceive these things, the more falsified the impressions of BYU (and because of it's affiliation with the LDS religion, the "mormon" religion also), as traci, tommy, and sdswingr have convicingly shown me.

To anybody that reads this post, assuming Justin doesn't move it to a hidden section of the forum again, I tried my very best to stay calm and express my feelings in this regard. I've intended all my criticism towards myself and the BYU students there, EXCLUSIVELY. Because of Buzz's post, and sdswingr's particularly, I feel completely convinced that I'm making the right steps towards getting my life out of the hypocrisy.

A non-lds friend once told me a joke in front of about 30 other non-lds people:
"why do you always fish with at least TWO mormons? Because if you take one, he'll drink all the beer".

It's not just an anti-LDS sentiment, I'm realizing. We look bad when we don't do what we say we will. Commitments to something, be it the honor code or a denominational christianity, or the mormon faith, or in marriage, should not be a salad bar where we pick and choose what we like, and say, "no, i don't like those tomatoes, not gonna take those" and not take on responsibility for more difficult things we might get criticized for or embarrassed about. I'm certain this is why Ben Sundberg and his family hate BYU so much and I'm understanding why everybody else that hates BYU hates it for the reason the way they do. It's a small, easy adjustment. My friends when I've lived out of state have ALWAYS treated me with kindness and respect when I ask them to make changes for the requirements of my personal conscience or contractual duties.

At this point, this is long enough for me to think it's anybody's careless reading habits that would make you not understand what my purpose and audience are.

By the way, maybe we ought to move this topic to "Anything Goes" where I knew of no topics that I was not allowed to write about. That's where I originally put it, before the moderators deleted it (put it in a hidden section of the forum).

EDIT FOR JUSTIN's post:
weaknesses in your post:
showing that we "care" by making excuses about non-approved housing (which is irrelavent, see the HC website)
quoting only part of the info at textmarks.com and the swingkids.info page that links to it

That's making excuses, not taking accountability.
Talk to coach Mendenhall about how he'd react to players violating the honor code by allowing alcohol in their apartment
The honor code page is linked, sounds like you haven't read it yet.
Restaurants serving limited alcohol is different than a full bar at a club or a party where alcohol is consumed. We're grown ups. We can clearly see that in order to have a Law of Moses type honor code to give us guidance in this regard, it needs to be rewritten. So, as grown ups, we make judgment calls, or we let the honor code office make them for us.
And still, to me, based on what you've written, it doesn't sound like you disapproved of what happened, but are rather more interested in grilling my for my emotional tirade you quoted from the PM I sent you.
read the above post for clarity:

Mshimmy's post: by inviting a BYU student to Zanzibar, you've done a nice social thing. by that byu student going to zanzibar, they've violated the honor code on their own accord.

i was trying not to contribute more to this fiasco, but my mouth gets the best of me, again.

I don't even want to be where alcohol is served or consumed.

here's my other two cents (and i'm taking a mormon point of view here, so be warned)...

alcohol happens. like most temptations, it's hard to avoid. it's in restaurants, in grocery stores, at your neighbor's house, at lindy exchanges, at the skillet (rarely), at outdoor festivals (like the upcoming jazz festival). this is how the world is. once you graduate from byu and leave provo, you'll have to associate with people who drink frequently or on occasion.

does this mean you have to drink alcohol too? no. does this mean that if you do drink, you get to blame someone else because you were tempted? no. does this mean you get to shun someone because they don't have the same views on alcohol as you do? no!

in my opinion, no matter what the situation is, you are responsible for what you do, and you respect others' beliefs, even if you think they are wrong. take responsibility for your own actions and feelings. if you aren't happy with a situation, do something about it, but be polite. people are more likely to respond how you like if you are nice to them. if you have done everything you can and nothing has changed, then change your attitude or remove yourself from the situation.

And people, please stop with the whole "soul in danger" "oh so i'm evil if I do this" sarcasm and rhetoric.

It's not the point, as I've tried to make clear in the above 4 pages worth of post.

Those cards are a good first play if I was trying to make religious judgments. As I've stated, I'M NOT. These are matters of an educational's institution's required code of conduct for all students, by definition. They actually require integrity, effort, and sacrifice.

Because I was too idealistic to realize that BYU students and system are as the USU and U of U students told me they would be.

And to traci's post: Visiting hours on weekends, so far as I understood it, extend to 1:30 when you're off campus, see http://honorcode.byu.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3585&Itemid=4643. You'll notice that on campus visiting hours are to midnight on Saturdays, which is not stated for off-campus. but if you're right, then thank you. just so everybody, BYU students and not, knows what we're expected and who ignores our code of conduct, versus who stands by them. And so that people who didn't know, now know. If it's a problem, it needs to stop, for the sake of our integrity and not embarassing ourselves and the university further. And thanks again for bringing this up so buzz, justin, and whomever else can read that these requirements are for ALL students, no matter where they live.

...maybe we ought to move this topic to "Anything Goes"...

good point. moved to "Anything Goes".

I wouldn't take the time to reply, but this is just too much fun (and easy)

As students, we give our word of honor to our ecclesiastical leader (for mormon and non-mormon students) and to the university to follow ALL the guidelines of the honor code, as a commitment to ourselves and the university...

Additionally, by my being present AT the swing house while you were consuming alcohol, I've also violated my OWN commitment to the honor code to not be PRESENT at a place where alcohol is being consumed. I expect every other student to committed to living the honor code, just like I am and the football players at BYU are...

So by having alcohol, you haven't done anything wrong. We BYU students on the other hand, have all just made ourselves out to again be spineless hypocrites.

Dude, are you an IDIOT? You just called yourself and EVERY BYU student a spineless hypocrite! By your logic, every time a BYU student goes to TGI Fridays, Barbacoa, Cafe Rio, The Delta Center, Franklin Covey Field, THE AIRPORT, A GAS STATION for cryin' out loud, then they're violating the honor code. You should report yourself for every time you've been to a public park to watch the Pioneer day fireworks, because I guarantee there was drinking going on there (and weed-smoking too!)

And when I mess up, TELL ME. I'd appreciate it.

You mess up just about every day, dude. Better pack your bags and start looking for another school. Here's a list of schools where you won't have to worry about turning yourself in all the time.

I HAVE to try to live up to the standards I said I'd live up to at BYU. Because I reflected poorly on myself and BYU by being at that party and doing nothing, I feel I made a mistake and need to make up for it.

I take it that from this comment, you also plan to write to the management of every hotel you've ever stayed in because they've allowed people to have pre-marital sex within the confines of their property. I think you should start boycotting Albertson's and Smith's because every time you need food, you have to break the honor code to go in their store.

Open up your eyes dude. People like you are way too concerned with always being TOLD what the right thing to do is, rather than analyize the situation and come to your own conclusion based on a moral foundation that's deeper than a set of rules. The world is not black and white and cannot be summarized buy a bunch of do's and do-not's. Maybe if the BYU honor code included restrictions on fraud, money laundring, slander and the like, we wouldn't have such a problem with "white collar" crime in this state. It's people like you who rely on lists of rules who throw a fit about stores selling beer on sundays, and then go screw people out of thousands of dollars in pyramid schemes. That's real Christ Like, isn't it?

The attempt was to come across as a more regular guy that's cool enough to slide across the rules a little bit, as a symbol of we all strive to keep our commitments in marriage, community and civic duty, and religious obligations, but often make mistakes or don't care about one or two things.

Actually, just so you know, you came across as a total dick who has nothing better to do than to keep tabs on other people and whine like a little baby when the milk's not the exact right temperature. Why don't you worry about yourself and mind your own business, no one likes to be preached to. Just try adopting your self righteous attitude in the workplace and see how far it gets you. Luckily for you, the people on these boards and in the community are gracious and forgiving. I'm sure after taking a long critical look at your actions, and eating a little humble pie, you'll make amends and be welcomed right back into the community.

Uh-oh, im starting to sound like Dan! [Emoticon not found]

spencewebb:

You'll notice that on campus visiting hours are to midnight on Saturdays, which is not stated for off-campus.

Actually, it is stated, just they spelled out "midnight" instead of saying "12", so it doesn't jump out of the text. But yes, visiting hours end at midnight.

spencewebb:

bobthecow:

spencewebb:

Because I was too idealistic to realize that BYU students and system are as the USU and U of U students told me they would be.

please be careful about dismissing all of BYU because you disagree with my actions.

somebody please correct me if the responses posted by the non-byu students don't symbolize an at-large sentiment, so far as the perception of this university and the people here are concerned.

I'm confident that every opinion that has been expressed in the thread so far represents many people who share the same viewpoint, or have shared such a viewpoint in similar controversies. That being said, I'm now interested to know what exactly you heard from those USU and UU students. The stuff I've heard about the system here tends to be stuff like "the Honor Code office gives you a bunch of crap, and all the students are stuck-up hypocrites that tell everybody else what to do". Was what you heard something like that? Because if it was, I'm still confused. [Emoticon not found]

spencewebb:

and based on the number of replies and views, I'd say this thread was what people wanted to read about and talk about.

Speaking only for myself, it wasn't the topic I would have picked, given my choice of all topics, but yeah, everyone does seem to have an opinion. Judging by the number of people who slow down to look at a car wreck, I'd say that's what we've got here. [Emoticon not found]

Tommy:

Spence, I can't really read your whole avatar, but if it says what i think it says, that's one more strike against you.

I was thinking earlier that it was kind of ironic, but forgot to say anything until you mentioned it.

bobthecow, your milk is non-homogenized!

(take that!)

[Emoticon not found]

Wow, I do believe this is the most intense "fighting" these forums have ever seen. I blame... M'shimmy.

Ok... tired of quoting, so I'm not going to do it.

I do not believe this was not an honor code violation. There have been many good points made such as to the interpretation of what would constitute alcohol being present. It would have been a totally different game if alcohol was being offered around or it was planned or if Justin turned bartender in order to pay rent. But... none of that happened.

In any case, I'm no longer a student so at least I can still be saved.

Hot Chocolate:

wait.. let's just dance

prob'ly a better choice.

Buzz:

I do not believe this was not an honor code violation.

Well, that would depend on what your definition of "is" is. I wouldn't fail to refuse to contradict your argument if I didn't doubt that my lack of hesitation would negate any general insufficiency of the aforementioned.

Oh, wait.... the other thread is where I'm allowed to make fun of Buzz.

Buzz:

I blame... M'shimmy.

It's because I'm Evil, isn't it? [Emoticon not found]

Foehg:

Buzz:

I do not believe this was not an honor code violation.

Well, that would depend on what your definition of "is" is. I wouldn't fail to refuse to contradict your argument if I didn't doubt that my lack of hesitation would negate any general insufficiency of the aforementioned.

Oh, wait.... the other thread is where I'm allowed to make fun of Buzz.

I hate you. Let's fight.

[Emoticon not found]

sorry, tim. i've gotta be a moderator sometimes...