http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_%28dance%29

Wikipedia:

Today there are swing dance scenes in many developed Western and Asian countries throughout the world, and though each city and country varies in their preferences for particular dances, lindy hop is often the most popular. It is important to note, though, that west coast swing dance attracts more dancers, particularly in the United States. Each local swing dance community has a distinct local culture and defines "swing dance" and "appropriate" dance music in different ways.

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_time

Wikipedia:

Styles that always use traditional (triplet) rhythms, resembling "hard swing," include:

* Music for foxtrot, quickstep and some other ballroom dances.
* Swing.

Styles that sometimes use swing rhythms include:

* Early rock and roll such as Bill Haley's Shake, Rattle and Roll and Rock Around the Clock, Buddy Holly's That'll Be The Day, and Elvis Presley's Jailhouse Rock. In later rock and roll music it is unusual but not unknown.
* Country and western
* Blues
* Big band

So if you are being a 'purist' shouldn't you do foxtrot, quickstep (since those came before 'swing' and are thus more pure right?) and a little country and western? Needless to say, I don't agree with the use of the word purist because of its inaccuracy and also because of its implied superiority.

My bad HC at least I caught it though. it had been about a week scence i had run across it.

HC that depends on what you mean by a "west coast" scene. If you mean playing anything that's not trad jazz from the 20's- 40's, I guess maybe we are. However, I certainly wouldn't term it a "west coast" scene.

popthestack:

Then again, I guess it depends on what you mean by "west coast".

West coast rocks.

Well... the problem here is that both PTS and myself are more Lindy Hoopers than most people at BYU... I will speak for myslef and don't know what PTS feelings are but as for me I "like" a variety of music as long as it holds within the Genre. What I mean by that is if I go out to "lindy Hop" I am ok with music that wouyld make me do other dances, as long as ot fell winto the same "ERA" (like charleston/Lindy Hop/ Blues.. on the other hand there's the other Genre or Era.. which TO ME is West Coast Swing/Carolina Shag/NIght Club or Two Step) So although I don't hate the other even though I don't know how to dance to it I personally don't want to hear modern or Pop music when I am Lindy Hoppin.. and If I was a westie. I wouldn't want to hear Jazz when I was doing west coast.

I have asked this question to other dancers outside of Utah and their response is.. fairly similar, hence my speculation a while back of Utah having a different scene than most "swing" scenes.

I am glad T-Sub noticed the difference between Seattle-scene and our scene. And I guess coming to the BYU dances, we should expect to hear the variety of music that is being played on a weekly basis. Most of the DJs that spin at BYU do an excellent job at accommodating the particular taste of the dancers there but there are those few (myself and POPS) who prefer the era and genre of Lindy Hop music.

I think the difference in all of this is that since me and POPS are the minority in Utah swing scene, we tend to be somewhat overlooked due to our preferences listed above. I for one have gotten used to that and tend to go to the dances to mostly socialize and enjoy a few dances here and there. I think if roles were reversed, a lot of you would be complaining more often about the choice of music being played at the dances as it was made known to me by Special K of my DJ set two Saturdays ago.

And as for POPS or myself going up and requesting from the DJ, I think it's more work than it's worth. [Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found] ha ha ha! Personally, I prefer to just kick back and wait for a decent song to dance to and then complain about it later publicly on the forum. hee hee. [Emoticon not found] Now let's hear from POPS.

frutyspice:

Now, no one can accuse us of having a purist (using the negative connotation, of course) mentality because we have held workshops on West Coast and play a much more diverse selection of music at Elite Hall. We keep very good relations with the other dance groups (West Coast, Hip Hop, Salsa) but we all understand that when we attend each other's events, we won't be hearing anything but what they normally play at those events-- and no, no one feels force-fed.

Yes, frutybabe, you're talking about the recent years at Utah State. Thankfully, we've come a long way in Logan. It used to be Savoy Style Lindy Hop or Bust. Unfortunately that's the culture I helped establish when we started the club. It persisted for a long time. I'm oh so glad it's not like that anymore. We're much more accepting of other styles and imo better dancers and people for it (meaning better than we used to be in Logan).

Hot Chocolate:

I wasn't offended at all.. I've outgrown being offended by what people say on the forum

well, you're ugly and your mom dresses you funny. what do you have to say about that?

frutyspice:

Now, no one can accuse us of having a purist (using the negative connotation, of course) mentality because we have held workshops on West Coast and play a much more diverse selection of music at Elite Hall. We keep very good relations with the other dance groups (West Coast, Hip Hop, Salsa) but we all understand that when we attend each other's events, we won't be hearing anything but what they normally play at those events-- and no, no one feels force-fed.

Hot Chocolate:

As for spice... she's right Logan is Lindy

"Logan" means USU's swing club on Thursday nights, right? I'm trying to follow.

I'm slightly lost in our tangents/generalizations. What was our point(s) again? Can we have a review please? [Emoticon not found]

The music. Good point.

lindysnob:

being anti anything is really bad. steven and virginie admonished us to learn other styles of dance. there is nothing wrong with enjoying other forms of dance, or even doing them, the key,as damon stone says, is that you understand what makes what what. then you can choose to dance how you want, but if you have no knowledge, the descision is not based on a very solid ground.

/agree lindysnob

if one views the lindy dancing and jazz as part of the socio-cultural phenomenon of the harlem renaissance and the birth of jazz, it would seem almost too obvious to have to state - to me - that any "purist" to any sort of movement that is not their own is a hypocrite.
it's an environment thing, a beautiful, coordinated reckless abandon in spite of an apparent cultural repression of the time. Any subsequent decade post 20s is strictly it's own, in it's own beautiful way.
stop trying to capture some pure form of style A or style B, improvisational dance is personal and intuitive from one's own surrounding, or it's just steps. that's what set "swing" styles apart from ballroom standard and latin. it's a social/cultural statement that makes it what it is. you can gravitate towards imitation but until it's original, it's hypocritical. and while the step-worshipping swinger or competitor certainly has their own type of expertise, I'd sooner watch or learn a crisper more disciplined ballroom style because the step worshipping swinger just looks sloppy comparatively

there's nothing less enjoyable than seeing these threads rant on and on and on and on and ON - it's everlasting - about how to define this and that and what is this and that and what or who is asking

we're NOT part of the harlem renaissance, SORRY! a culture develops what it is and makes it's own statements. you can't imitate improvisation. you're just creating steps and you can be as pure to your own delineations of that thing all you want. i respect your opinions but realistically wonder how you can expect to cling to something like the styles of swing without a shred of cultural context. it has changed, and will continue to change, that's how intuitive type things go.

these posts and conversations like this, this elitist - i wouldn't call it snobbery i've just heard from others that it makes us look and sound like - i won't say the word
like we have to pretend how much we're trying to be "authentic" well you're NOT authentic! you're not pure! I'm not trying to be mean or judgemental or anthing, it's just the truth!

[Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found] I was pure untell you said "bassbowls" [Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found]

Good post I agree its really hard to get anyhing pure or origional at this point in the gamee, but it never hurts to try.

Well.. I think Spencer is a Ballroom "Purist.. Or Elitist" [Emoticon not found] this of course is coming from another "Purist.. Or Elitist" that would be me... I am the one and only Lindy Purist this side of the Great Salt Lake [Emoticon not found] and I can spot a purist a mile away... maybe we should be called "Puritans" nah.... name's already taken

I like the way ballroom spencer posted that it was sweet... however it hasn't convinced me to believe I or any of the lindy hoppers I know or look up to are not purist or elitist. In fact its made me feel superior in my knowledge of jazz and lindyhop.. Ha! Anyway.. Back to my dancing and music lovin'

Okaaaay... I disagree here-

[quote][cite] Thing 1 and Thing 2:[/cite]<snip blah blah blah byu is westie> but as I have gotten more into lindyhop I have realized that the traditional stuff or "purist" stuff allows you to move to the music better. [/quote]
here-
[quote][cite] Thing 1 and Thing 2:[/cite]<snip westie swing is fun>but the "bounce" doesn't quite fit, hence why many BYU dancers go for the "smooth style" of swing outs. This allows you to addapt the lindy steps to more unusual or funky music. [/quote]
and here-
[quote][cite] Thing 1 and Thing 2:[/cite]<snip comment about the decision being about style and not music>And it is difficult to switch back and forth. These two styles tend not to mesh too well.[/quote]

Ok. First can I point out that BYU is NOT "westie"? Unless of course "westie" is a catch-all term for anything that is the slightest bit groovy, smooth, bluesy, etc. To me "westie" is what describes what goes on at the MAC, and there's a big $%^#ing difference between that and a BYU dance (at least with the majority of the dj's- when Dan Beasely dj's it's another story. [Emoticon not found] )

Second. I don't think that traditional stuff helps you "move better". Don't get me wrong, I LOVE traditional music, and am constantly looking for new songs by classic and period artists. However, wtf is "better"? Hrmmm? I certainly move differently to some of the older songs, but then again I try to move differently to songs from other time periods or songs that have a different feeling to them. What's the point? You should ALWAYS be adapting your movement to complement the song, and shouldn't be dancing the same to every song even if they are from the same period/by the same artist.

Third. Sorry, but I disagree both regarding the "bounce" only being able to be used in traditional music and regarding the idea that the two "styles" (ie Smooth and Bouncy/Savoy) being "hard" to mesh and/or switch between. There are some songs that are not considered "traditional" (both from older time periods and more modern stuff) that definitely make me want to dance with a movement that has a very distinct pulse or "bounce." And the idea that it's too hard to mesh them together or switch between them (whether in the same song or in the same night) is completely ridiculous. If the song changes (ie has a fast, bouncy part interspersed by a smooth part or something), then your movement should reflect that. If it's hard to do so, maybe it's a sign that you have limited yourself to only practicing and applying one particular movement. To me, hearing that they are "hard to switch between" is just like hearing that switching between leading and following is difficult. It can be at first, but with practice it gets easier, and usually makes for a more interesting, fresh, and fun time.

Now I'm glad that Julie didn't rag on the music and pointed out that she thought different styles could be fun, but there were a few statements and terms used that I disagreed with, and so have written this reply.

[quote][cite] spencer:[/cite]if one views the lindy dancing and jazz as part of the socio-cultural phenomenon of the harlem renaissance and the birth of jazz, it would seem almost too obvious to have to state - to me - that any "purist" to any sort of movement that is not their own is a hypocrite.
it's an environment thing, a beautiful, coordinated reckless abandon in spite of an apparent cultural repression of the time. Any subsequent decade post 20s is strictly it's own, in it's own beautiful way.
stop trying to capture some pure form of style A or style B, improvisational dance is personal and intuitive from one's own surrounding, or it's just steps.[/quote]

That's why everyone is a dancing mutt of some sort. Everyone. For example, it's hard for our generation not to be influenced in some way by Michael Jackson's dancing. It saturated American pop culture for a long period of time.

[quote][cite] spencer:[/cite]there's nothing less enjoyable than seeing these threads rant on [/quote]

Hehe, who's ranting/hypocritical? [Emoticon not found] Thanks for the chastisement. I'll try to do better in the future.

[quote][cite] spencer:[/cite]we're NOT part of the harlem renaissance, SORRY! a culture develops what it is and makes it's own statements. you can't imitate improvisation. [b]you[/b]'re just creating steps and you can be as pure to your own delineations of that thing all [b]you [/b]want. i respect [b]your [/b]opinions but realistically wonder how you can expect to cling to something like the styles of swing without a shred of cultural context. it has changed, and will continue to change, that's how intuitive type things go.[/quote]

I largely agree with your points, but just wish you'd approach it differently. For me, your point would have been more persuasive if there was less exaggeration. In addition, I couldn't tell who you were verbally attacking. Your use of [b]you [/b]made it unclear to me.

[quote][cite] spencer:[/cite]these posts and conversations like this, this elitist - i wouldn't call it snobbery i've just heard from others that it makes us look and sound like - i won't say the word [again]
like we have to pretend how much we're trying to be "authentic" well you're NOT authentic! you're not pure! I'm not trying to be mean or judgemental or anthing, it's just the truth![/quote]

I thought Spencer, at least in the previous version of his post, said something about improvisation and jazz. I'm glad that someone who actually plays jazz is posting on this thread. Not too many things bug me more than hearing some jazz standard or big band pop tune played live today with the same solo as was recorded in 1930 or '40. First, it's not half as good. Second, it's meant to be improvised. Change it up. Same goes for dancing. Change it up. Improv. Interpret. Feel the music move you. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the follow, the floor, everywhere, yes. Even between the band and the dancers.

My opinion is that we can clarify the difference that can exist between a dance purist and a dance historian. From what I understand, a dance purist in Spencer's context is not much better than a low-quality ballroom dancer, a cookie cutter that doesn't quite cut it since it's missing many cultural ingredients. The dance historian, in my eyes, understands that times have changed, people have changed, music around us has changed. But we also can't let the dances die. So s/he talks with the old dancers to understand more than just the steps and the rhythms. An example of this is Peter fuming people's misunderstandings about a dance clip [url=http://www.balboadancer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1178#1178]here[/url]. Or describing how he feels balboa competitions should be run [url=http://www.balboadancer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1188#1188]here[/url]. He provides a jazz dance historians perspective and seems to try to represent the views of the old-timers.

[Addendum] Okay, I just found a [url=http://www.balboadancer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p[Emoticon not found]44#944]brief discussion[/url] that begins to clarify this and describes it like this:
[quote][cite] Damon:[/cite]The road to mastery is pretty much the same in all artistic and technical pursuits... Imitate, Emulate, Innovate.
<then he expounds on these three steps> ...[/quote]

So, I would delete that last paragraph ("My opinion is that ..."[Emoticon not found], but I think it illustrates my thought process here.

Buzz... you know me so well you annoying little punk! Ha ha ha... for me its actually the thrill of making a list of as many enemies as possible so I have an idea of who to peg with a pie in the face at the next dance.... buzz you're second on my list... maybe third.. I think grant is second.

Ok but seriously.. I think we are all pretty set in our ways to change our way of thinking or our taste in music we like to lindy to.. I'm sure Dean C. And Frankie M. Had a lot of differences in thei preference of music... I don't mind it at all. But there are times when people (Ballroom Spencer) ha! Try and individually single people out to discredit their individual preference or way of thought..(dude I just totally singled him out). this is one reason why I stopped getting all frustrated with the music being played at Swing dances.. I've realized that the scene is what it is and just because I don't like it doesn't mean I have to ridicule others... I know I often generalize the swing dancers at BYU as Westie... or Bluesy.. Or Groovy... but I don't believe I have said they don't know what swing is... I've said they're not "Lindy Hoppers" but I don't think anyone has been offended by that.. (Especially Buzz) if they have been I extend my apologies. I peronsally would not be offended if someone said "man that Hot Chocolate Cat is no westie, he's one of them trad jazz cats" but personally I don't need validation of that from anyone on the forum.. I have had great teachers, dancers and dance historians validate that for me already.

I think the point I was making with my posts was that there is a very distinct difference between what the scene here regards as a swing dance venue and what other places like (Seattle, Stockholm, Toulousse or DC) do. Now.. Sac. Or SF are totally different... as well... from what I've heard in their sets.. Its closer to the Utah scene. So I don't care what you wanna call the different flavors of music but in my opinion they are different and should be danced differently as Chuy so eloquently put it. In closing I don't consider Lindy Hop superior to westie or groove.. Or whatever... just different, and I think we are all really good at our own styles.. That I think is the best goal we can achieve individually...

Oh and yeah.. Buzz!!! I am djing.. And I will make sure to have you banned from that evening of sweet music and dancing

Square plugs go in SQUARE holes? No wonder my pre-school teacher always got after me...

I had a great talk this weekend with Peter Loggins, Chris Chapman, and Kevin Buster as well as Hamilton Carson and some of the members of the Salomon Douglas band on Jazz and dance... so HA!! Cool That's all i'm gonna say about that.

Ron

What did they say? [Emoticon not found]

I agree with you... Ooooh, you gonna disagree with that, eh?! [Emoticon not found]

I <3 [url=http://www.roscoeschickenandwaffles.com/]Roscoe's chicken and waffles[/url].

Wow, I'm not sure where to start. I feel obligated to post, mostly because Julie says that I need to.

First off, I appreciate a variety of styles of music at swing events. (I prefer to keep it withing it's limits like jazz, blues, funk, soul, etc. No rock, country, polka, etc) I'd agree with Traci on this one, where I like being able to experiment with my dancing, but I wouldn't say that I'm always doing Lindy Hop. I also, believe that you can not do real lindy hop to hip hop. You can partner dance doing stylized versions of charlston, spins, etc, but if you're doing your swingout the same way you would to Count Basie, then you're not dancing to the music. And if you are dancing to the music, you're not doing lindy hop. (The rhythms are way too different. You're just partner dancing with a lindy influence.)

As for bounce, it all depends on the song. I'm sure there are more groovier type songs that allow some kind of pulse in your dancing, however that type of pulse is going to be different from the pulse that you get with traditional swing music. I agree with Chuy that we should be adapting our dancing to the music. Switching from bounce to non-bounce can sometimes be challenging, but I often like a challenge, but then again, I often prefer to bounce. I just try to do what the music tells me to do.

That's all I can think of at this point.

spencer:

and while the step-worshipping swinger or competitor certainly has their own type of expertise, I'd sooner watch or learn a crisper more disciplined ballroom style because the step worshipping swinger just looks sloppy comparatively

are you saying that ALL lindyhoppers are step worshiping swingers who look sloppy OR just the ones that don't bother to learn technique, and any type of improvisational skills?

because I personally would rather watch a performance by amazing professional lindy hoppers like Andy & Nina or Kevin & Carla, then watch an amatuer ballroom couple with bad form and no rhythm. In comparison, the professional lindy hoppers will look better.

It doesn't matter what style of dancing it is, there will always be dancers that make it look sloppy in comparison to another.

And perhaps this is not your meaning, but I'd like to defend that just because I'm a Lindy hopper does not mean that I'm sloppy or undisiplined.
I still consider myself a lady, thank you very much. [Emoticon not found]

Sure you can in my opinion.. very few dancers out there who can be all of the above and then some.. but I know some great Lindy Hoppers who are kick a## West Coast Dancers as well... I think this was all stemming back to mixing the music and doing Lindy to non swing music... I think

spencer:

Hot Chocolate:

OH Snap!!!!... You go girl!! *snap.. *snap*

lol.

*reserved for response*

...????? ok that was nerdy, but you didn't really answer my question.

In case you missed it, here is is again.

sqemily:

are you saying that ALL lindyhoppers are step worshiping swingers who look sloppy OR just the ones that don't bother to learn technique, and any type of improvisational skills?

No.. he won't get it until friday.

Buzz:

STOP DUMPING ON TEH INTERNET!!!

I'm SORRY! I just keep forgetting it's not a big truck.