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Ya'll wrote a lot of stuff which I lack the time to read fully, but you're assuming a considerably higher level of background experience with Jazz than is found in the average populace.
My experience with Jazz was almost nil before I started dancing. I like some of the songs which have been panned and dislike some of the others. I agree that stupid and offensive songs will turn people off, but our perception of such is affected by our years of experience with the music.
I'm having trouble believing that everyone comes swing dancing to hear the old masters play. Quite frankly I'm not particularly fond of scratchy and unfaithful recordings now matter who's name is attached to them. What I like is a solid mix of tempos, styles and energy be they classics or new hits.
People like to hear familiar songs and will be more comfortable dancing to them, even though they might not be up to your standards and music tastes. As a DJ you need to decide whether you are playing for everyone, your clique, or just yourself. I'm not saying you need to DJ west coast music for a Lindy dance, but if it will please a large segment of your dancers, it wouldn't kill you to play just one.
As a DJ who has played in a lot of different scenes, and who has been a regular DJ in a couple of them, this is something I have a bit of a strong opinion on (thanks for the tipoff, Grant). It's easy to say that you shouldn't play to the newbies, but in my opinion, if you're saying that, you forget what it was like to learn to dance. New dancers like and somewhat need familiarity. Experienced dancers thrive on variety, because it brings out the creativity and artistry in the dance. On top of that, most people who haven't been exposed to much jazz, will always prefer songs that fall into one of two categories - jazz vocal standards, or jump blues type music. A big part of that is because those standards are more memorable, so it's easier for them to remember "Oh, I can do THIS here". The second is because it's closer musically to the rock music that we're all familiar with now.
Honestly, most of the songs that I play for newbies are not ones that I like to dance to. But it's a necessary evil. And, to be honest, there are an awful lot of songs that get played for 'advanced' dancers that are just as played out (for me) and just as "silly" as 'newbie' songs. I'm guilty of playing those songs when I am DJing as well, and I'll tell you why it happens every time. Because there's a lot of fantastic trad-jazz and swing music that will still clear the floors in most scenes, and if you've just played a song like that, you have to throw the intermediate/advanced dancers a bone and play something like late Basie or Ella or whatever. (This is a separate topic, but I'm also convinced that it's necessary for the growth of a scene to play those challenging songs. Every time one of those songs comes on, if even just a few dancers try it and get better because of it, it's a success.)
There's no reason to keep with the SAME newbie-friendly songs all the time, that's very true. But you have to play some of them.
I second that post T-Rage... that was awesome
Very well put. I agree.
Not this topic again...
I suggest a moderator move the tangentials where they belong.
Them's fighting words Spencer!!! I challenge you to a dance off!!! Pick your partner.. Wisely.
His partner's name is Wisely? I don't know that follow. But I'm assuming he's leading.
spencewebb:Not this topic again...
I suggest a moderator move the tangentials where they belong.
um, tangents are what this forum is all about. haven't you noticed that most threads get off-topic by um, say, the second post? [Emoticon not found]
take this post for example. it has absolutely nothing at all to do with "i hate this song" OR "what type of music is appropriate for dances."
conversations are cool like that.
Hot Chocolate:Them's fighting words Spencer!!! I challenge you to a dance off!!! Pick your partner.. Wisely.
can I choose you? Then you can dance with another partner of your choice as a lead. Then they can judge us.
Bah! Curse you and your witty smart brain... you win.. I have been defeated... lets just all be friends and hug
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emphasis added:
SpecialK:Ya'll wrote a lot of stuff which I lack the time to read fully, but you're assuming a considerably higher level of background experience with Jazz than is found in the average populace.
I find it funny that you didn't read it all and then assume that the rest of us were assuming a bunch of stuff.
I do not think anyone was "assuming a considerably higher level of background experience with Jazz..." Where did you get that idea? I certainly didn't get that idea from any of the posts. In fact, I got the exact opposite idea.
SpecialK:My experience with Jazz was almost nil before I started dancing. I like some of the songs which have been panned and dislike some of the others. I agree that stupid and offensive songs will turn people off, but our perception of such is affected by our years of experience with the music.
I had no experience with Jazz before dancing. Of course our perception is affected by our years of experience. Again, I didn't see anyone disagreeing with this. You jumped to conclusions that weren't being made or even implied (correct me if I'm wrong).
SpecialK:I'm having trouble believing that everyone comes swing dancing to hear the old masters play. Quite frankly I'm not particularly fond of scratchy and unfaithful recordings now matter who's name is attached to them. What I like is a solid mix of tempos, styles and energy be they classics or new hits.
Once again, I don't think anyone said that "everyone comes swing dancing to hear the old masters play." Heck, if I wanted to hear the old masters play, a dance here in Utah would be the last place I would go.
As for the "scratchy and unfaithful" recordings... here's an opinion, which I share.
Mr. Todd Yannacone:on another music related tangent, i was in phoenix last week listening to an *incredible* django record my friend chad owns (yes, i said record), and once again, i was blown away and just stuck inside the music. and i am not one to be picky about my sound quality, most of the best music i can think of that i own is from a time when good recording was just not an option, so it doesnt bother me listening to records, because the music is still good, even if it has more snaps, crackles, and pops than a bowl of rice krispies. s***, i dance to my cell phone when it rings because it has a django ringtone, and it sounds like a straight ghetto blaster (causes me to miss calls sometimes). but when i was sitting there listening to this record, i realized how precious sound quality is to some people. i have some friends that spend ridiculous amounts of money on their stereo systems, and want surround sound and all this crazy stuff, and it feels to me like they are more obsessed with how clear the sound is than the actual sound being produced. not to say i dont appreciate good sound quality, but sometimes i appreciate music even more when i had to strain to hear a few notes, and i had to wade through the static noise to get the whole song. it's that feeling of having put in that little extra bit of work that lets you fully appreciate what you've been listening to, rather than having it silver lined and handed to you on a platter, possibly forgetting whats even on the platter in the first place.
I don't expect you to all of the sudden like the scratchy stuff, but perhaps you could at least try and feel an appreciation for it.
The recordings are old and of poor quality, but they are full of solid mixes of tempos, styles and tons of energy (loudness and crispness != energy). By saying that you like that stuff (the tempos, styles, etc), you imply that they don't exist in the "scratchy and unfaithful" recordings. But nothing could be further from the truth. My guess is that you haven't actually listened to much of the scratchy stuff... or when it comes on you have a hard time hearing the beat so you give up on it.
In my opinion, it takes a better dancer to be able to dance to the scratchy stuff, because it is harder to hear. You do have to work for it. Of course, by saying this I'll get people all worked up and some, who will probably skip this paragraph, will go off on how we shouldn't play the scratchy stuff that much because it's hard for the beginners, blah blah blah. But lucky you, you're saving your time and energy by reading what I write before you jump to all kinds of conclusions. Good job! I'm not suggesting we play scratchy music all night long. And also, I really think that most (ok maybe not most, but some) of the people complaining in behalf of the beginners are really complaining for themselves. It's OK to admit that you like the music that you claim the beginners supposedly like.
SpecialK:People like to hear familiar songs and will be more comfortable dancing to them, even though they might not be up to your standards and music tastes. As a DJ you need to decide whether you are playing for everyone, your clique, or just yourself. I'm not saying you need to DJ west coast music for a Lindy dance, but if it will please a large segment of your dancers, it wouldn't kill you to play just one.
Yes, people do like to hear familiar songs. That doesn't mean that they won't dance if they don't recognize anything. I'm not sure what Seattle's weekly venues are like, hot chocolate can weigh in on this. I'm sure the music isn't what's played at camp jitterbug, but it's a lot closer to it than we are here. Yes, I know we're not Seattle and I don't think mimicking any city is necessarily a good way to go. What I'm saying is that everyone seems to have this idea of what a beginner is and what a beginner will or won't dance to. The funny thing about it though is that this preconceived idea of what a beginner is changes from city to city. In Seattle I get the impression that newbies are perceived as being able to dance to what I call "better music." Here, newbies are perceived as being a bunch of sucky dancers who like what I call "crappy music." These perceptions of newbies (and my perceptions of the perceptions) may or not be right, but I do know from experience that Seattle has way more good dancers than we do, way more beginners, and their beginners can do a swing out* and they can do a swing out fast. You don't get that without good teachers AND "good music."
I think if we allow ourselves to change our perception of what a beginner is, we'll magically find that the beginners are better dancers.
* = I might add, that some of their beginners have better swing outs than many of the follows here who have been dancing a few years... I don't say this to offend, but to hopefully get people to try a little harder.
popthestack:* = I might add, that some of their beginners have better swing outs than many of the follows here who have been dancing a few years... I don't say this to offend, but to hopefully get people to try a little harder.
i might add that some of the leads here have better swingouts than many of the seattle follows who have been dancing a few years. i don't say this to offend, but hopefully to help people understand that there are mediocre dancers in all scenes.
p.s. isn't it great how everyone's impression of the seattle dance scene is based entirely on one weekend. ryan, if there's any argument for getting dj's and bands for ULX that actually represent utah, that would be it.
bobthecow:popthestack:* = I might add, that some of their beginners have better swing outs than many of the follows here who have been dancing a few years... I don't say this to offend, but to hopefully get people to try a little harder.
p.s. isn't it great how everyone's impression of the seattle dance scene is based entirely on one weekend. ryan, if there's any argument for getting dj's and bands for ULX that actually represent utah, that would be it.
it's like how some people think that we have this great scene based on their attending the exchange only.
traci:it's like how some people think that we have this great scene based on their attending the exchange only.
Yeah! How could they know how great our scene is when they haven't even met me!
...Wait, what were we talking about?
traci:bobthecow:popthestack:* = I might add, that some of their beginners have better swing outs than many of the follows here who have been dancing a few years... I don't say this to offend, but to hopefully get people to try a little harder.
p.s. isn't it great how everyone's impression of the seattle dance scene is based entirely on one weekend. ryan, if there's any argument for getting dj's and bands for ULX that actually represent utah, that would be it.
it's like how some people think that we have this great scene based on their attending the exchange only.
Exactly. If they could only experience the true amazingness of our scene. [Emoticon not found]
flipthestack:You don't get that without good teachers AND "good music."
AMeN! Let's dig up one of those old threads about teaching and then start improving our teaching.
Woohoo!!! Lets start the insanity
bobthecow:i might add that some of the leads here have better swingouts than many of the seattle follows who have been dancing a few years. i don't say this to offend, but hopefully to help people understand that there are mediocre dancers in all scenes.
p.s. isn't it great how everyone's impression of the seattle dance scene is based entirely on one weekend. ryan, if there's any argument for getting dj's and bands for ULX that actually represent utah, that would be it.
okay point taken. though my impression isn't just from the one weekend, it's also from talking to other people. but yeah, point taken. my bad.
I still stand by this comment I made: "I think if we allow ourselves to change our perception of what a beginner is, we'll magically find that the beginners are better dancers."
popthestack:bobthecow:p.s. isn't it great how everyone's impression of the seattle dance scene is based entirely on one weekend. ryan, if there's any argument for getting dj's and bands for ULX that actually represent utah, that would be it.
okay point taken. though my impression isn't just from the one weekend, it's also from talking to other people. but yeah, point taken. my bad.
not just you ryan [Emoticon not found], everyone does it. i wasn't commenting on how accurate said impression is, i was commenting on how easy it is to make assumptions about a scene. i love seattle. i love dancing in seattle during jitterbug, and i love dancing there on a regular weeknight. i just think we need to make sure our exchange represents us as a scene (or at least represents the best parts of our scene), because people will make assumptions on dancing in utah based on our events.
Word word
Word, good point
Terrible point
(Sorry, I had to go against the grain)
bobthecow:i might add that some of the leads here have better swingouts than many of the seattle follows who have been dancing a few years. i don't say this to offend, but hopefully to help people understand that there are mediocre dancers in all scenes.
Your concentrating on the phrasing of his comment and not on his meaning, which I have to say that I agree with. The variety of music played in Seattle does lead to more complete dancers at all levels (in my experience, which admittedly is a little bit dated). One of the weaknesses of the Utah scene is the homogeny of music and dance styles and the serious lack of willingness for dancers to try challenging music. I can't count how many times I've cleared the floor (or at least, down to 2-3 couples) while DJing here, and I haven't done so all that often. I really think Utah needs to make a concerted effort to get more badass -- you have to start trying to dance to a tough song, even if you don't think you can. Eventually you'll be able to. And the mistakes and learning and pure guts that come out of that process are the basic material that forms 'raw' dancing. That's how you discover where your soul is and what makes you bust out -- and let's be honest, that's why we're all here. It's not to look good and polished for a crowd or for a video or for some judges -- it's because you like the music and the dance and you want to get wild with it and throw down.
At least, I hope that spirit is still alive in the dance scene. Sometimes I wonder.
(Toddy, if you're reading this, you're exempted from that particular tirade. I've seen your overgrown ass out there enough that I know where you stand.)
By the way, Ryan, although I really do agree with a lot of what you said, I disagree with Todd that lo-fidelity recordings somehow offer a better experience. If you know where to look, you can find many of those 'scratchy old recordings' remastered by some VERY good audio engineers. That means the same badass music, but much more accessible for listeners and much less stress on the sound system. Sadly, you usually have to go to imports to find good remasters, but they're out there.
Next time I'm spinning someplace here in Utah, remind me to play some of my crazy badass Joe Daniels stuff. A guy who I met through my favorite audiophile site sent me a free copy of a really great remaster he did himself, and the music is excellent. Early 40s British swing, re-recorded from a VINYL master... not entirely clean, but close enough for general playability, and some great stuff on there.
Trager:The variety of music played in Seattle does lead to more complete dancers at all levels (in my experience, which admittedly is a little bit dated). One of the weaknesses of the Utah scene is the homogeny of music and dance styles and the serious lack of willingness for dancers to try challenging music. I can't count how many times I've cleared the floor (or at least, down to 2-3 couples) while DJing here, and I haven't done so all that often. I really think Utah needs to make a concerted effort to get more badass -- you have to start trying to dance to a tough song, even if you don't think you can. Eventually you'll be able to. And the mistakes and learning and pure guts that come out of that process are the basic material that forms 'raw' dancing. That's how you discover where your soul is and what makes you bust out -- and let's be honest, that's why we're all here. It's not to look good and polished for a crowd or for a video or for some judges -- it's because you like the music and the dance and you want to get wild with it and throw down.
At least, I hope that spirit is still alive in the dance scene. Sometimes I wonder.
Can I hear an "Amen!"
I just wanted to say I was very impressed with that comment.
So what are we saying here when you call music tough? High speed? funky rhythm? More modern jazz? What clears floors in Utah and pumps Seattellites
through the roof?
I suppose one trick is to get some of the outspoken dancers in this thread out on the floor so people can see some of the possibilities here.
I had no idea that scratchy music could be remastered. That's awesome!
frutyspice:Can I hear an "Amen!"
I just wanted to say I was very impressed with that comment.
Amen! I too am very impressed with it. There's been some good stuff in this thread.
SpecialK:So what are we saying here when you call music tough? High speed? funky rhythm? More modern jazz? What clears floors in Utah and pumps Seattellites
through the roof?I suppose one trick is to get some of the outspoken dancers in this thread out on the floor so people can see some of the possibilities here.
I'd say the tough music is any music you hear and think "this is too fast," or "this is too slow," or "i can't hear the beat," or just think it sounds hard. Or perhaps you hear a super awesome fast/slow/medium song, but don't want to dance because there's no one that can really dance to it like you'd like. In other words, if you hear the song and like the song, and don't dance there's a problem! Get up and dance anyway. This goes for me too.
I think the "outspoken" dancers generally ARE out on the floor.
Trager:
Next time I'm spinning someplace here in Utah, remind me to play some of my crazy badass Joe Daniels stuff.
And when will that be? You are so busy at work we haven't seen you for-ev-er!
I agree with what Trager said about just trying to dance to the "harder" music and eventually you'll be able to handle it. That's how Shane and I did it. Just have fun, that's why we dance. (I hope.)
Personally, I love rhythmically challenging recordings, such as crazy Basie, Hampton recordings with the full band going nuts, in seemingly different directions, syncopations all over the place, higher trumpets blaring, and then climaxing in ways I wouldn't've imagined.
Thing 1 and Thing 2:Trager:
Next time I'm spinning someplace here in Utah, remind me to play some of my crazy badass Joe Daniels stuff.
And when will that be? You are so busy at work we haven't seen you for-ev-er!
He was there two skillets ago! [Emoticon not found] but yeah... come out more! I wanna hear the crazy Joe Daniels stuff.
t_roach:Personally, I love rhythmically challenging recordings, such as crazy Basie, Hampton recordings with the full band going nuts, in seemingly different directions, syncopations all over the place, higher trumpets blaring, and then climaxing in ways I wouldn't've imagined.
Yep.
Word
SpecialK:So what are we saying here when you call music tough? High speed? funky rhythm? More modern jazz? What clears floors in Utah and pumps Seattellites
through the roof?
Lots of things can make a song "tough". High speed. Shifting tempos. Implied rhythm instead of a well-defined bass line. Music where the rhythm section doesn't swing (obviously) but the melody does. Music with a lot of harmonic interplay. Songs that transition between swing and other styles of music.
Sorry about the absence, guys. I'm still in work lockdown, cranking out 50-80 hours a week. Makes it hard to have the energy to go out on Friday nights, usually it's all I can do to make the gym and then head home and veg out for a little bit.
trager:Sorry about the absence, guys. I'm still in work lockdown, cranking out 50-80 hours a week. Makes it hard to have the energy to go out on Friday nights, usually it's all I can do to make the gym and then head home and veg out for a little bit.
no excuses!
that's a pretty good excuse... [Emoticon not found]
... if an excuse was to be accepted.