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from http://www.stlfusion.com/what_is_blues.shtml
Blues dance, like Lindy Hop and Swing, originated and evolved from African rhythms and movements. However, Blues dance was never widely practiced as a "social" or performance dance in the United States; so it developed and thrived in smoky juke joints and at Blues house parties, giving it a more intimate feel.
Because Blues dance lacked wider social approval and appeal, it remained strongly entrenched in African principles of movement, not only in the motion of the hips, but in the characteristic creation of, and dancing within, a boundary.
In addition, Blues dance is strongly tied to Blues music, and many aspects of Blues dance (for example, call and response, emotional intensity, and tension and release) are directly related to the music to which it is danced. There are many types of blues music (rural, urban, up-tempo, slow, electric, delta, modern), and therefore many types of Blues dance, all with very different nuances and emotions.
Some observers and dancers who have not studied modern slow Blues dance other than simply by observation overlook the nuances of the dance beyond its "sexy" side. To their eyes, the sensual appearance of the dance may overshadow its basis and structure. Blues dance at its best is rooted in subtle physical communication and connection with your partner and is almost impossible to learn to execute well simply by watching.
Blues dance enables intense individuality in expressing the music. The music, not the dancer, leads the dance; the dancer is simply the interpreter. Blues dance demonstrates the passion of the entire range of human emotions - from sadness to joy- not just sensuality. If you don't have a visceral reaction to the music, your partner, and the environment, then you are missing the true beauty of Blues dance.
Learning Blues dance enables the dancer to more fully understand dance concepts such as simplicity, clarity, creativity, expression, intensity, and musical and emotional interpretation that are critical to advanced social dancing of any kind.
discuss
here we go agaiiin.....
ElChuy:here we go agaiiin.....
hey. don't lame on this thread before it even gets started... i think it's a valid discussion.
(it's kind of funny how all three of us are supposedly at an exchange. and yet, we're all yapping online instead of dancing. we. are. nerds.)
anyway, i think it could be an interesting discussion if people actually talk about it.
It has the potential to improve your lindy hop, but to me it seems to me that the bad outweighs any good that comes from it, generally speaking. People get lazy. When fast music comes on they run to the blues room. It's a crying shame. Your slow lindy may get better, but if you don't keep a good balance with it, your faster lindy hop suffers.
I'm not saying it's not possible, or that it's the case with everyone, but generally it appears to me that it causes more damage to lindy hop than the amount it improves it.
And that's my real problem with blues.
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If your scenario is the case then ya, it's has detrimental side effect. BUT like you said, if you work on Charleston and Blues Dancing, imo your FAST and SLOW lindy will improve respectively. As for medium tempo Lindy, you just gotta work on it =D
you wont know it til you try it sucka.
t_roach:If you're scenario is the case then ya, it's has detrimental side effect. BUT like you said, if you work on Charleston and Blues Dancing, imo your FAST and SLOW lindy will improve respectively. As for medium tempo Lindy, you just gotta work on it =D
Hmmmm...
ashes:you wont know it til you try it sucka.
who says I haven't? [Emoticon not found]
quote from hunter.
blues dancing does improve your lindy.
there you go. coming from a rockstar.
... because what I really need is rockstar validation ...
[Emoticon not found]
Who's Hunter??
Hunter's not a rockstar.... just a good dancer.
I think dancing the blues can improve your Lindy tremendously if you haven't ever done it... blues music, that is. As far as blues dancing goes, I have some mixed feelings.
ok so this is what i got out of the seattle exchange. i would go back and fourth from the blues room and the lindy room. i came to realize that if you do blues it helps you establish a better connection with your partner in lindy hop. but it can also make your lindy very lazy so you have to be careful. blues strictly helps you connect. and better connection helps better lindy.. read me?
Yeah... i'm with Cali on this one.. The connection thing, I believe might be different for everyone IMO... C'mon Roach! don't let me down and start arguing with me on this one
Dude! You didn't even state your opinion on this one. How can I argue with it? [Emoticon not found]
And yes, I think learning shake blues would help your lindy hop. I also think learning almost any type of dancing could help with expanding another previously learned dance. The opposite can happen too (i.e. going country swing dancing a lot can lead to getting herky jerky with lindy or west coast). But I'm really talking about learning other dances with mutual roots and learning them WELL (since most "country swing" is a arguably low quality derivitive of other dances). If we learn another dance well, the chances of expanding or deepening skills in the original dance increases greatly. For example, lindy hop led to west coast as the music changed. For me, and from my perspective, learning west coast helped improve my lindy hop. Charleston led to lindy hop as the music changed. For me, learning charleston is improving my lindy hop greatly. I also feel the same way about various blues dances, black bottom, texas tommy, balboa, and collegiate shag (to name a few). But it all depends on application and perspective.
One example of a crossover dancer (not directly related to blues) is Doug Silton. He is a competitive dancer in lindy hop, west coast, and carolina shag. He wins in all of them. Does his lindy hop look and feel a little different from other lindyhoppers? I sure hope so. And I sure hope all of us don't look the same when dance. Thank goodness for the unique creative experiences that emerge from dancing with a variety of people to a variety of music, whether it be at an out of state exchange, at BYU Swing Kids, or while eating a snocone in the Smith's parking lot in Logan, Utah! [Emoticon not found] Keep it fresh.
Lets just say you guys are talking about getting better at "Dancing" and leave Lindy Hop out of it...
Let's not put words in my mouth now. [Emoticon not found] I know what you're implying, but maybe reread this part of my post.
For me, and from my perspective, learning west coast helped improve my lindy hop. Charleston led to lindy hop as the music changed. For me, learning charleston is improving my lindy hop greatly. I also feel the same way about various blues dances, black bottom, texas tommy, balboa, and collegiate shag (to name a few). But it all depends on application and perspective.
[Emoticon not found]
You are correct I retract my comment... But I still want to put something in your mouth... How about my fist... Ha ha ha ha...
Oh and just because I want to punch Roach in the face, doesn't take away from him being a very unique dancer... He has a really unique style and he is very good at it.. I really like how you interpret the music and you ability to dance to all styles.. You da man when it comes to that.. And for the record... I'm just joking about the physical threats to roach.. I is a lova not a fighta.. [Emoticon not found]
Boogaloo:You are correct I retract my comment... But I still want to put something in your mouth... How about my fist... Ha ha ha ha...
Hahaha! I read that as "...in your mouth... How about my list..." Grocery list? Huh?!?! [Emoticon not found]
Maybe I will Roach.. maybe I will... ok so back to the Blues thing..
So my perspective then is that dancing a bunch of different types of dancing is good, if they're all separate (to a degree, obviously charleston, lindy and balboa). If they're all mixed together then it becomes a whole new animal... which many people find enjoyable.
But, you already knew that about me.
popthestack:If they're all mixed together then it becomes a whole new animal... which many people find enjoyable.
isn't modern lindy a mix of a bunch of different dances?
traci:isn't modern lindy a mix of a bunch of different dances?
I thought Modern Lindy was just really fast blues dancing. *ducks*
[Emoticon not found]
Waaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! [Emoticon not found]
say no to blues.
I think everybody already knows my opinion on the matter... but I'm going to state it anyway.
I think that Blues dancing is great and that it can improve your Lindy. I think Lindy can improve your Blues. And same for West Coast and all of the other dances aforementioned (except country of course [Emoticon not found] ) I enjoy a variety of music and dances. When there is only one dance and one tempo for 3 hours, however much I might like it at first, it starts to get like the mono-toned speaker in church the other Sunday... boring.
However, I definitely agree that Blues has the possibilty of making you a lazy dancer. But if that happens, you are not dancing the Blues right my friend. Blues takes lots of energy, even if it is a different kind of energy. Lazy dancing should be avoided in all forms.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Learning Blues dance enables the dancer to more fully understand dance concepts such as simplicity, clarity, creativity, expression, intensity, and musical and emotional interpretation that are critical to advanced social dancing of any kind.
a beginning dancer often equates good dancing with flashy moves (i.e. lifts) and complicated figures ([Emoticon not found] octopus :sick[Emoticon not found]... not that these things are inherently bad (that's another discussion altogether), but they don't make a good dancer. we know this because the slightly-beyond-beginner dancers teaching other beginners how to do the 'candlestick' or the 'mop' during dances and beginner lessons usually don't have a firm grasp of essential things like connection and rhythm, let alone musicality, creativity, clarity, expression...
i find it interesting to watch beginning blues dancers... they may have seen some 'house party' blues, or they may have watched or danced with another beginner blues dancer that thought they knew enough to show them how to do it... whatever the reason, they have come to understand the dance as the swing equivalent to club dancing.
they try to emulate what they see happening on the dance floor. i'm not sure how it is to dance with a beginning blues lead, but when dancing with a beginning follow, this usually translates into a lot of unnecessary movement. gyrating, wiggling, shimmying. lots of movement that wasn't led... and most especially that one thing where she pushes her pelvis forward and leans her shoulders as far back as possible (a.k.a. the beaver clamp...), successfully blocking any lead her partner may attempt.
all of this extraneous movement takes away from the dance. i suppose the lindy equivalent is a follow that lunges forward on one, regardless of the lead, because that's what she thinks she's supposed to do.
i have noticed that beginning dancers rarely understand that it's okay to stop moving. in lindy charleston, this happens on count six, where there isn't a kick or a step to do. they rush past this step. this is usually disastrous.
it took a while for me to see the beauty of simplicity in lindy hop. it seems like that's a pretty advanced concept. and blues can help a dancer grasp simplicity.
bobthecow:a beginning dancer often equates good dancing with flashy moves . . . and beginner lessons usually don't have a firm grasp of essential things like connection and rhythm, let alone musicality, creativity, clarity, expression...
Good point... but then again, blues dancing will only help if they are learning from a reliable source (which you sort of mentioned later in your post).
bobthecow:whatever the reason, they have come to understand the dance as the swing equivalent to club dancing.
And I think that the problem that most of us really have is that most people around here are using blues dancing as a sexual release instead of using it as a highly connected, musical dance form. When a chick shoves her chest against me at the beginning of a blues dance, I'm flattered, but I know it's not going to be a very connected or musical dance (at least, not musical in the sense of moving to the music coming from the sound box).
But yeah, I think we're on the same page here, Bob. I've always enjoyed my blues dances with you because you understand what blues is. Most of us just complain because the beginners (meaning the majority of the dance floor) use blues as if it's just some form of dirty dancing.
bobthecow:i find it interesting to watch beginning blues dancers... they may have seen some 'house party' blues, or they may have watched or danced with another beginner blues dancer that thought they knew enough to show them how to do it... whatever the reason, they have come to understand the dance as the swing equivalent to club dancing.
i found there to be a lot of "club dancing" in seattle. there were also some great blues dancers too.
i even danced with a rockstar. Michael Seguin. he said that blues dancing is fake dancing. i beg to differ. but he did end up attempting a few blues dances with me. (not as great as his lindy.) i think that it is great dancing if you do it right. i think a lot of poeple are afraid of it.
but the real question is how did lindy hop get incorperated with blues dancing? they are similar in a way but also not. similar as far as the connection goes.
california:And I think that the problem that most of us really have is that most people around here are using blues dancing as a sexual release instead of using it as a highly connected, musical dance form. When a chick shoves her chest against me at the beginning of a blues dance, I'm flattered, but I know it's not going to be a very connected or musical dance (at least, not musical in the sense of moving to the music coming from the sound box).
the connection with blues can be in many different ways cali. connection can be established with the chest and with the weight. blues dancing can also be the same connection that you have when doing bal. you just have to be in the right frame of mind which can be difficult for some people. i believe that some people probably use it for a sexual release but it is not very often that i dance with someone that i feel that vibe from them. occasionally it does happen and it creeps me out.
i really just want to know why people are anti blues? why do you guys not want to have anything to do with blues. i am really wanting your oppinion with this people.
I am with you guys on this.. Really goos posts guys.. Man I'm impressed cow.. You know a lot about the whole blues thing, and California has a really good point on the scene here and how blues dancing is seen here.. I have to admit that I was very ignorant with the whole blues thing.. This has been really cool.. The concepts of what you guys refer to as Blues dancing have been concepts I learned when I was first beginning to study Lindy with my first teacher... Same concepts and structure of connection we didn't dance them to the groovy blues of today.. It was done more to more lindy music that was slow and bluesey... Like slow count basie stuff... Blues for ilene comes to mind... the movement and connection was similar just not right up against each other as much.. Which actually is how really good blues dancers do it.. They are not always up against each other all the time... Now I am studying more slow drag.. Which is my idea of blues dancing... But that's another topic.. Thanks for the insight guys.. Good stuff
ashes:but the real question is how did lindy hop get incorperated with blues dancing? they are similar in a way but also not. similar as far as the connection goes.
the savoy dancers (you know, the ones that invented lindy) did blues too.
It was more Drag than Blues
there are lots of styles of blues dancing, like there are lots of styles of swing dancing. slow drag is one type of blues dance
True dat.. True dat.. I am not too knowledgable in the whole blues thing.. But I've been learning drag the past few months.. And what I've been told is that drag was more popular than other blues dancing, in the dance halls of the 30's
ashes:i even danced with a rockstar. Michael Seguin.
Who? Haven't heard of him... [Emoticon not found]
Good stuff being said here.
popthestack:ashes:i even danced with a rockstar. Michael Seguin.
Who? Haven't heard of him... [Emoticon not found]
Good stuff being said here.
Boogaloo:True dat.. True dat.. I am not too knowledgable in the whole blues thing.. But I've been learning drag the past few months.. And what I've been told is that drag was more popular than other blues dancing, in the dance halls of the 30's
true, true.
most of the blues dancing in the 30's wasn't done in dance halls anyway... the biggest reason for this is that blues has never really been socially acceptable. it was danced in juke joints, in bars, in clubs... rarely on the dance floor. and that's pretty much how it is today.
"slow drag" or "drag blues" is prob'ly the oldest style of blues dancing. i think it was around in the late 1800's. it predates lindy by a few decades [Emoticon not found] but it was never wildly popular, mostly because of the sensual nature of the dance. it wasn't "proper", like waltz or foxtrot. of course, swing dance wasn't proper when it first started, either. but they're both still around.
of course not all blues today is drag. since pure dance is an expression of the music it is danced to (and blues more so than most dances, imho), there should be as many styles of blues dance as there are types of blues. you would dance completely different to a "slow drag" song than you would to jump blues, or to boogie woogie. this doesn't make any of these dances better or worse than the others, unless of course you were dancing slow drag to a jump blues band. that would be worse. definitely worse.
personally, my blues dancing tends more toward "drag blues" than "house party blues" or "dirty blues". drag encompasses more of the things about blues that i enjoy. i'm not really into grinding on people, or crazy gyrations... but that's just my personal opinion.
if you want to try something really sweet, boog, you should check out micro blues... you'll never be the same.
bobthecow:if you want to try something really sweet, boog, you should check out micro blues... you'll never be the same.
Word
so, after reading all of your thoughts on blues and swing dancing, i have to say that i'm impressed that this hasn't turned into the catfight i expected.
i (obviously) love blues dancing, and my goal in starting this thread was not to start an argument, but to help people realize that not all blues is house party clamped-to-your-partner-while-grinding blues. while that dancing might have it's place (behind closed doors), if you ever get a chance to really learn blues dancing, like at a workshop or a class, do it. even if you think that it won't benefit your dancing at all, just give it a shot. there can't be much wrong with stepping out of the lindy box for an hour to find out what blues is really all about.
that being said, here's my perspective on how blues has improved my dancing. fyi, i am by no means an expert on blues dancing or blues history. i've been blues dancing for a little over a year, but i have been able to go dancing and learn a lot during that year. (living near san francisco and friday night blues has it's benefits.)
connection: the lead and follow connection in blues dancing is much more subtle than it is in lindy. maybe i feel this way because i'm still a beginning blues dancer, and i'm still learning to recognize leads. (and apparently i have a lot to work on, because after a dance with bill borgida last night, the first thing he said to me was "i'm teaching a connection class this thursday. you should come."[Emoticon not found]
blues also seems to rely more on a partnership than other dances i've learned. the follower relies on the lead for a suggestion in movement, and the follower can take that suggestion and add her own idea to it. the leader then can take her idea and add to it, and so on. this is a kind of "call and response" that is found in blues dancing. i imagine that lindy can be like this too, but it doesn't seem to be emphasized as much in lindy as it is in blues.
energy: blues, to me, is a highly energetic dance (take a look at that shake blues clip for an idea of what i mean, even though it is a *little much at the end). even when there doesn't seem to be much movement (like in microblues), there is a lot of energy that goes into that movement. personally, i believe that i have given 100% of myself to more blues dances than lindy dances. blues is not a lazy dance. in my (not so) humble opinion, the perception of blues being a "lazy" dance is probably more descriptive of the dancer than the dance. if i think that my dancing is getting "lazy", then i need to put more effort into improving my dancing, rather than stop dancing an entire genre of dance.
creativity: i've already meantioned this, but i feel it deserves it's own point. since blues relies so much on the dancer's interpretation of the music, i have taken bigger risks with my lindy hop. i expirament with movement a lot, in lindy as well as blues. sometimes what i try works, sometimes it doesn't. but fear of ugly movement doesn't stop me from giving it a go. i also want to focus more on lindy "basics" and technique, but it's hard to get in all of the dancing that i want.
musicality: blues dancing places a lot of emphasis on reflecting the emotion and feel of the music in your dancing. this is what is the most challenging to me right now, as i rarely, if ever, listen to the lyrics. i really get into the beat and the feel of the music, but i have no clue if my dancing is reflecting what the music really means. i am excited to really work on this aspect of my dancing.
that's all.
traci:so, after reading all of your thoughts on blues and swing dancing, i have to say that i'm impressed that this hasn't turned into the catfight i expected.
I knew you just wanted to fight!
traci:i (obviously) love blues dancing, and my goal in starting this thread was not to start an argument, but to help people realize that not all blues is house party clamped-to-your-partner-while-grinding blues. while that dancing might have it's place (behind closed doors),
Tee hee! [Emoticon not found]
But besides that, I agree with you Traci. And I must say that I was thoroughly and pleasantly impressed with the drastic increase in "woah" of your dancing. I take you as a great example of how blues can help improve your lindy (and lindy help blues, etc.)
popthestack:ashes:i even danced with a rockstar. Michael Seguin.
Who? Haven't heard of him... [Emoticon not found]
Good stuff being said here.
yeah click that link. he actually taught at camp jitterbug this year. you were there. i guess you never took his class?
and traci good points. very good points. i so strongly believe that blues has helped us both. i watched you improve and you watched me improve. therefore 1+1=2 lindy hoppers improved.
i feel this was a great topic to have.
i had a few slow drag only dances in seattle. by far one of my most favorite dance genre's ever. i have never felt so much connection with a partner before. it was awesome.
moral of the story. ... . blues dancing and other like dancing DOES improve your lindy hop.
traci:because after a dance with bill borgida last night, the first thing he said to me was "i'm teaching a connection class this thursday. you should come."[Emoticon not found]
If we're going to use the word "rockstars," there's a daddy of "rockstars." (Can I be a rockstar some day? [Emoticon not found]) You gonna take his class??? Take notes for me [Emoticon not found]
blues also seems to rely more on a partnership than other dances i've learned. the follower relies on the lead for a suggestion in movement, and the follower can take that suggestion and add her own idea to it. the leader then can take her idea and add to it, and so on. this is a kind of "call and response" that is found in blues dancing. i imagine that lindy can be like this too, but it doesn't seem to be emphasized as much in lindy as it is in blues.
My favorite kind of lindy hop partnership [Emoticon not found]
(take a look at that shake blues clip for an idea of what i mean, even though it is a *little much at the end).
Hey Virgil, I know you're out there somewhere. I finally found this clip on Giselle's myspace.
personally, i believe that i have given 100% of myself to more blues dances than lindy dances.
Welcome to my lindy hop world [Emoticon not found]
i've already meantioned this, but i feel it deserves it's own point. since blues relies so much on the dancer's interpretation of the music, i have taken bigger risks with my lindy hop. i expirament with movement a lot, in lindy as well as blues. sometimes what i try works, sometimes it doesn't. but fear of ugly movement doesn't stop me from giving it a go.
YAY for taking the risks!
t_roach:You gonna take his class??? Take notes for me
no. it's tonight in san francisco (an hour-ish away), and i have to work late tonight. [Emoticon not found] so i'm going to take a private lesson from him instead on tuesday. [Emoticon not found] he's also teaching a musicality class at friday night blues for the next couple of weeks, and i'm hoping to catch one of those as well.
Cool... I'm seeing that we all have the same energy and love for the dance.. we just enjoy the different styles.. For me the Blues connection is not as exciting as the Lindy connection.. Personally for meI think a lot of my dancing background plays a big part in that.. too many to list, but overall I can see how some of the dancers around here see things similarly as I do with Lindy but they see it in blues. Good to see we all have a dance we enjoy and are passionate about.
traci:t_roach:You gonna take his class??? Take notes for me
no. it's tonight in san francisco (an hour-ish away), and i have to work late tonight. [Emoticon not found] so i'm going to take a private lesson from him instead on tuesday. [Emoticon not found] he's also teaching a musicality class at friday night blues for the next couple of weeks, and i'm hoping to catch one of those as well.
nuts, that rocks!
bobthecow:popthestack:ashes:i even danced with a rockstar. Michael Seguin.
Who? Haven't heard of him... [Emoticon not found]
Good stuff being said here.
Oh, that Michael Seguin. Yeah, I've heard of him... I have videos of him dancing...