Ah hah! Found it! Rereading now [Emoticon not found]

... bummer, unfortunately the pictures I was looking for have been relocated [Emoticon not found] Specifically these:

Matt Smiley:

Alright, time to nerd out a bit.

The best dancers seem to know exactly what every muscle in their body is doing any given moment of the dance. Work on being mindful of what your muscles are doing and then work on doing it better. If you really want to get good lines, start imagining that every millisecond of your dance is being photographed, then mentally go through your movements millisecond by millisecond to make sure that each image captured will make the best picture possible. If you want to be better than good, then once you done that, start changing things up and take some real risks with your choices. Analyzing a video of yourself would probably be the best thing to do for your dancing all around, but for specific work on lines, just look at a few pictures of yourself and see how they compare with some of these shots I've linked below.

http://www.jivejunction.com/photoalbums/alhc2003/pages/2003alhc34.htm

The arms and legs in this picture are so straight and precise! Still, though, there is some sort of kinetic energy visible, making the image come alive with motion - the picture is clearly not a pose. It's easy to get good lines when you pose, but the dancer here has the rare trait of making the lines look easy mid-dance. Her limbs make two sweet crisscrossing lines through her body.

http://www.jivejunction.com/photoalbums/alhc2003/images/2003alhc18.jpg

Check out the line that goes from Andy's back shoulder, straight to Nina's face. Then notice how her left arm also guides your eye straight to her face. The result is an very cool composition that probably wasn't practiced or "worked on," but just results naturally from bad ass dancing.

http://www.jivejunction.com/photoalbums/lindybinge2003/friday/images/017.jpg

Dig Skye's arm and leg extending forward - it just looks so much more dramatic than the average Charleston, because he is taking a chance and extending everything out a bit more that usual.

http://www.jivejunction.com/photoalbums/ulhs2002/saturday/images/01762.jpg

One of my favorite pictures ever! That line that flows from Marty's extended rear foot through his back, down his arm and across the top part of Jen's frame is really impressive. Also notice how his right forearm hangs perfectly parallel to his thigh - it's subtle, but as a stylistic choice, it's the little things like this that make a picture really stand out.

http://robotchicken.com/galleries/ulhs2-battle/images/IMG_3199.jpg

Another example of a dancer making a strong choice of movement. Had he done this exaggerated point standing straight up, this never would have looked as cool. Likewise, had he done it without torquing his body towards his partner, it never would have looked as cool. But when he gets down and turns his body, he gets a sweet line from the tip of his finger, across the broad of his back, and straight through to his partners' right hand.

http://robotchicken.com/galleries/ulhs2-sat/images/IMG_3169.jpg

Even with the fuzziness you can instantly tell that it's all about the angles here - Nick is really grounded and nails a stretch that gets a beautiful straight line from his foot up through his whole body - it's the angles that make the whole thing look so powerful.

http://robotchicken.com/galleries/ulhs2-fri/images/IMG_3024.jpg

Check Frida out! Right arm, left forearm, left leg all perfectly parallel to each other for this one instant. Poise, power, precision - it's all there.

Aaaah, but here's a few that he mentioned. Try and match them =D

Andy & Gigi

+ skye and jojo

Click on these:

Jojo & Giselle

http://www.dancemaddog.com/img/gallery/alhc/jogis.jpe

Mad Dog!

http://www.dancemaddog.com/img/gallery/alhc/maddogrehearse2.jpe

Just amazed that he has flipflops on!

http://www.dancemaddog.com/img/gallery/alhc/maddogrehearsemattjen.jpe

http://www.dancemaddog.com/img/gallery/alhc/reubennina.jpe

Oooo, I like it! Indeed, he is. I'm game.

Solo Charleston, jazz steps, and hip hop are all great for it too. Logan Jeremy is a star at the last two for sure.

Those aren't the pictures in Matt Smiley's original post. If I have time to find a copy of the post with the pictures still in it I'll post them (saw it recently).

You would

Figures... Doesn't surprise me one bit... what a waste of time, you guys are getting to serious with your dancing.. dancing is not about improving or getting better.. it's just about meeting chicks (or dudes)

Boogaloo:

Figures... Doesn't surprise me one bit... what a waste of time, you guys are getting to serious with your dancing.. dancing is not about improving or getting better.. it's just about meeting chicks (or dudes)

minus the dudes part

Yeah.. Well perhaps I am wrong... Hope to see people continuing to improve their dancing...

Alrigth, alright roach.. You called my bluff... I don't go to the dances just to meet chicks.. Or dudes

Yeah man that's nice... I saw that movie with you the other night.. It was cool.. Lines baby lines!!

t_roach:

popthestack:

Those aren't the pictures in Matt Smiley's original post. If I have time to find a copy of the post with the pictures still in it I'll post them (saw it recently).

Woh, woh. I thought I got at least one of them right. One of Skye doing Charleston has to be right [Emoticon not found]

Nope, all wrong. Still good images though. [Emoticon not found]

patience, patience! [Emoticon not found]

i've found two so far...

Matt Smiley:

Check out the line that goes from Andy's back shoulder, straight to Nina's face. Then notice how her left arm also guides your eye straight to her face. The result is an very cool composition that probably wasn't practiced or "worked on," but just results naturally from bad ass dancing.

One of my favorite pictures ever! That line that flows from Marty's extended rear foot through his back, down his arm and across the top part of Jen's frame is really impressive. Also notice how his right forearm hangs perfectly parallel to his thigh - it's subtle, but as a stylistic choice, it's the little things like this that make a picture really stand out.

Yeah.. lots and lots of lines of girls.. I meant girl lines

Unexpected topic. Good lines are very entertaining amongst the good dancers. Those are some great finds.

Not to detract from anyone's appreciation of good lines or anything, but it kind of sounds like a few of you would like to see a greater focus on lines around here, and I'm pretty darn sure that Utah's swing dancers aren't ready to mess with aesthetics right now. I've seen a few dancers around here in past years who focused too much too soon on their look, and their dancing technique and feel just went from bad to worse.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't admire some great dancer's good lines and perhaps try to emulate them (typically after you've actually had some lessons from the said dancer or someone similar), but there are a lot of more important things to focus on for our local scene. Don't frost the cake before it's cooked, y'all.

i know there is always a demand of bettering your technique but i feel that some people around here could use a little talk on lines. i think it could help improve dancing and technique. a small talk on lines is never bad in my opinion. people need to be introduced to this. especially when some of our utah dancers are trying to take their dancing a little more seriously.

california:

I'm pretty darn sure that Utah's swing dancers aren't ready to mess with aesthetics right now.

It's not about aesthetics. Good aesthetics are the RESULT of great dancing, greater understanding of technique. Truly great dancers look good because they understand deeper techniques that make the dance feel even better. Matt Smiley's post even stated this outright... he said 'The result is an very cool composition that probably wasn't practiced or "worked on," but just results naturally from bad ass dancing.'

I've seen a few dancers around here in past years who focused too much too soon on their look, and their dancing technique and feel just went from bad to worse.

There is a difference between trying to look good, and trying to look good and understand the technique involved, which I believe is what we have been talking about in this thread. It's what I've meant anyway. I also believe that in order to actually look good you HAVE to understand the technique. If you don't, you look like crap, which is probably what you have witnessed. Getting together with a group of people and teaching technique THROUGH teaching how to look sweet is a lot more effective than just teaching good technique. I think people are more willing to work on their technique if it means they'll look sweet.

I say ALL of Utah's swing dancers ARE more than ready to mess with aesthetics right now. Teaching good aesthetics to any level of dancer can be effective if done right. By so doing their technique will improve and everyone will benefit as a result. I think it's disingenuous to say that it isn't beneficial or that people aren't ready for it. If they're not ready for it now, when will they be? In my opinion, it's easier to work on good aesthetics now than later. If we wait until later, the rampant bad habits will be further ingrained in muscle memory and harder to correct. I know because there are things I have a hard time getting rid of because I have been doing them for so long.

So you might say I've contradicted myself and un-contradicted myself several times in this post, but really... I belive I'm making an important point.

I think it is a great idea to mention (especially to new dancers) that good technique casues the dance to look sweet

Da** BUzz.. you're deep Bro

Some excellent posts guys....

Thanks for posting those 6 principles boogaloo, those will keep me busy for some time! [Emoticon not found]

Boogaloo:

While it is true that these concepts are perhaps too advanced for the beginner dancer and would be more suitable and beneficial discussed in greater detail with an advanced group of dancers, I believe that in order to properly teach any dance form or preparation for any athletic activivity one must teach these core concepts (in a more simplified manner, so they are easier to grasp, By the way doing this is very challenging) to your students from the beginning so as their dancing progresses they do not develop bad habits, and they can more readily understand more advanced concepts as they gradually progress.

Word. So the ideal instruction for beginners would be better building blocks for the future. I like it. Hard to do (I sure don't know how), but most excellent.

Aaaaah.... I have always made a point never to disagree with anyones perspective's on dance concepts... Or ideas, evryone has a different opinion and ideals of teaching what is right and what is wrong... Some prefer "straight" lines sone prefer "curved" lines.. I have learned to have respect for all people's concepts and ideas on dancing and music... Although I tend to be a little less forgiving on the latter.. Probably because it is something I am still discovering.. I appreciate California's criticism and I shall hold my tongue as I do not feel like turning this thread into a battle of rigths and wrongs in dancing, anyone who has been teaching and dancing long enough knows this is a lose lose situation. I must admit I was not offended at all by the response, intrigued at some comments and laughed at others. It is clear to me who has a better understanding in this matter. I have no desire or need to prove my superiority in skill or knowledge of dance to anyone, be it an inferior or superior dancer.. And with that I close my reply. And look forward to the next topic of dance concept discussion as I find these to be thoroughly entertaining.

I realize that different people have different ways to understand concepts and principles. My attempt here is to better understand concepts and principles.

california:

Ryan, I totally agree with the principle that good technique will likely slowly produce good aesthetics--hence I say we shouldn't focus on the aesthetics. If "focusing on aesthetics" to you means showing the students what the good technique will make them look like, then I'm all for it. I'm just talking about discussion of matching lines (from your left leg through your right arm for example) as being something Utah dancers don't need right now--it would take away the focus from what we really need. But I do agree that other aesthetic issues do mostly get resolved from working on your timing, technique, and teamwork issues. If kids are learning aesthetics, they should definitely learn them in conjunction with the good technical principles that they come from; that's all I was saying. So yeah... no disagreement here.

I don't think good technique will "slowly produce good aesthetics." On the contrary, I think it'll produce good aesthetics pretty quickly. Reason? You can't look good if your dancing feels crappy. As an example, there's a lead here in Utah that I know of who while trying to apply some "aesthetics" to his dancing has noticed that there's a loss of connection and it doesn't work so well. As a result of applying aesthetics, his technique is improving. The same thing happened with me. I think I'd be much worse a dancer if I never tried to look good.

If you're not aware of what you want to become, what you want to look like, how will you ever get there? The sooner the awareness is there, the faster you will improve. I remember the first time I saw the maddog danvers video clip. I was amazed. I knew I wanted to be able to dance like that. I became aware of a higher standard, and have tried to achieve it. As time goes on, my standards change and who I watch to try to achieve them changes as well, but the principle is the same. I am aware of what I want to become, so that I can become it.

california:

As for Boogaloo's list, I can't say I agree with everything that's written there as it applies to dancing. I'm not really concerned with which book or expert they come from; they sound like a crock to me. Sure they are probably true physical principles, but trying to apply many of them to dancing will make your body do things that it shouldn't be doing for a good dance.

You mean if you apply them you'll end up looking like a lindy hopper? That must be a horrible, horrible thing. [Emoticon not found] [Emoticon not found]

Dancing should be 100% natural. No preservatives added. Any true physical principles (that apply to movement) should be completely applicable to dancing (physical principles to move and principles to keep the movement under control).

california:

Boogaloo:

1. Momentum should be employed to overcome resistance. (flow with your partner, not against him)

Totally disagree with this one... resistance should be created and matched to create the momentum. Momentum is a natural result of correct use of resistance and is not a conscious development. The conscious part comes in when the partners channel their momentum instead of letting it control them.

If the follower (or lead) just flows in the same direction as their partner, the dance loses all life and limps up like a dead fish. The momentum of swing dance is created from both dancers stretching away from each-other and soaking up the resistance, not running away from it.

Seems to me the disagreement here is a semantical disagreement. The resistance and momentum both create and overcome the other one. Boogaloo didn't say that resistance does not create momentum. Without momentum there is nothing to resist. Without resistance, there can be no momentum. I see nothing wrong with the sentence "Momentum should be employed to overcome resistance." Honestly, what is wrong with it? Nothing. Momentum SHOULD be used that way. If you don't use it that way, how do you overcome the resistance? Muscle power only? That is ineffecient and bad technique. Our muscles allow us to create resistance (so we're not limp like "dead fish"[Emoticon not found], which resistance then redirects/creates more momentum. If we're not using the momentum, it's using us and we're over-working our muscles. Boogaloo never said "momentum is all that matters and should therefore completely overcome resistance so that dancers can truly flow!" but it seems that is how it was understood. Of course, I am not boogaloo and I don't really know what he meant. I am just trying to interpret what's going on here. I think you're both right. I might re-word the sentence to say, as I understand it, "Use momentum and resistance to overcome each other, this will create a more efficient dance experience."

california:

Boogaloo:

2. Momentum should be reduced to a minimum if it is to be overcome by muscular effort.

You want momentum to be overcome by muscular effort? Dawg, we're trying to minimize muscular effort here. Sure, we have to check our momentum, but we only do it so that we don't fly into each other and lose our timing.

You are contradicting yourself. You stated above that resistance should be created and matched to create the momentum. If you're not using muscles to create resistance, what exactly are you using? Muscles are required. So if we are truly trying to minimize musclar effort, as you stated, then certainly we must keep the momentum to a minimum as anything more than minimum will require more muscular effort.

california:

Boogaloo:

3. Continuous curved motions require less effort than straight line motions involving sudden and sharp changes in direction.

Um yeah... I think we all kind of know that sharp direction changes aren't the right way to go. Curving everything isn't the right way to go either though. Continuous I agree with though--especially when turning (or "curving" as this weirdo puts it).

You used the word "curving," not the "weirdo". There's a difference between disagreeing with a concept and disagreeing with semantics. I'm not sure there's a real disagreement here besides semantics. I don't disagree with anything here.

california:

Boogaloo:

4. When the initiating muscles are unopposed, allowing free and smooth motion, the movements are faster, easier and more accurate than restricted or controlled movements.

Modern dancer? This is a true principle; however, swing dancing requires some "restricted or controlled movements". Staying in our allotted space and keeping within our allotted movement range is kind of the rules of the dance, yo.

I'm not sure I understand "initiating muscles" so I'll stay out of that until I understand it further. I do know that I prefer unrestricted to restricted movements. Unrestriction is one of my favorite things about swing dancing.

As for our "allotted space" that sounds a lot like west coast swing dancing, not lindy hop... which I think is what Boogaloo has studied. I'm really not sure though... he did say "dancing." If "allotted space" means "the space that my partner and I are using" then I might agree, because that space is constantly changing and being traded with other couples on the dance floor, which I find fun and challenging. If it's supposed to mean that I have an allotted space on the floor in which to dance, I'd say that's absolute crock. If the floor is free, it's free. If there is someone occupying space, it's allotted to them. [Emoticon not found]

california:

Boogaloo:

5. Work arranged to permit an easy and natural rhythm allows for a smooth and automatic performance.

Once again, true priciple, but it's got it's limits with swing dancing. As long as you're still in perfect timing with the music, trying to make it feel natural is a good thing.

I'm not sure I understand the disagreement. I'm also not sure I understand the meaning of "work arranged to permit..." unless it's meaning that all effort, or work, should allow an easy and natural rhythm... ? I would agree with that.

.

california:

Boogaloo:

6. hesitation or the temporary and often minute cessation of motion should be eliminated from the performance

Yin and yang, bro. This dude's all yin. Part of good movement is knowing where to put the spaces.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Boogaloo is suggesting we keep on dancing through breaks in the music.

california:

Boogaloo:

I have found that once a student develops bad habits.. The teacher must tear everything down, take away all the unessenatials and begin developing the proper foundation before building onto it. This process is usually very time conssuming and most people don't have the patience to go thru it.

I strongly disagree. A teacher should work with the student's strong points and fill in the holes that need it (if the teacher is knowledgeable enough to do so--and most clearly aren't). Tearing down is counter-productive and is used as a defense mechanism for a teacher who doesn't really understand how to break down the dance. I'm not saying that we're not all a little guilty, but it's a cop-out teaching method for those who don't really know what they're talking about--kind of like those 6 principles.

I'm going to agree with California on this one, although not with the parts about it being counter-productive, a defense mechansim, and I don't agree with it being a cop-out teaching method. I should point out though that I also agree with Boogaloo. I think it can be equally as hard to either tear down and start from scratch or to build on what's already there while fixing the bad habits. To say one is better than the other is claiming that that way is applicable in all situations with all individuals, which it is most certainly not. What works for one may not work for another.

OK.. so after reading my post I believe I may have come off somewhat defensive and It appears as if I was offended somewhat.. Now I was not (nor would I ever be) offended by California's or anyone's diagreement in my opnions and ideas about "dancing" Granted I did call them principles.. I can see now that it was the wrong choice of words. Let's call them an opinion or simply a point of view. Someone challenging my views or ideas are never offensive to me, in fact they do intrigue me and help me think about what I have said and gives an opportunity to explain things in a better light.. which ultimately helps me try and explain things in a way that is better understood. So with that said I welcome all comments and questions to anything I ever post ( I know that some of the wording is sometimes generalized and rather vague, and for that my apologies)

What I was offended by was the mockery and somewhat disrespect that I felt my opinions was treated with. "weirdo" "A bunch of crock" and so forth. Granted this is a free country and we all have a right to express our ideas and opinions however attempting to belittle someone on a public forum is not the way to do it, or that person my retaliate and then we would have an all out cat fight which could be a fun turn of events but then we would have to move the topic to the cat fights section and I kinda liked it here.. but i'm all for a good debate

After reading my posts again I realized that I was not being clear on some of the Ideas I was presenting, thus leaving myself open for a barrage of criticism and my point not being understood..

POP"s comment on me saying this as a Lindy Hopper made me realize that perhaps I was seeing it only from a Dancer's point of View and perhaps I may have offended California, as it seems like he is a West Coast dancer, furthermore since I have no training or opinion in West Coast dancing I will refrain from making any statements about it. I will be the first to admit I am ignorant in the West Coast dancing category, but apparantly California is educated (at least to some extent) in Lindy Hop as well as West Coast.. although I could be ignorant and say dancing is dancing.. it truly is not the same.. I could say that these concepts are just foundations (but that would create more arguments) and could be used for either.. I will not because I have no theory to prove it... However I will be more than happy to explain to anyone that wants me to how the thoughts and ideas expressed can be applied and why I feel are essentials points to remember (from a Lindy Hoppers point of view)

I guess I was being rather vague thinking that the majority of dancers who read this would look at it not literally but more from an intellectual point of view, applying the concepts of physics and dynanics to the dance as a whole and not one particular movement or set of moves... such as say a Swing Out, I did not think we were discussing one set of moves or one movement.. but dancing as a whole and lines and aesthetics..

With that being said I will clarify 2 points (since it seems they have come in question)

1."When the initiating muscles are unopposed, allowing free and smooth motion, the movements are faster, easier and more accurate than restricted or controlled movements."

What I meant here was take the initiating muscle.. and by that I mean any muscle that is initiating movement, as a Lindy Hopper let's take the lead's left foot as a rock step for the swing out, if you let your left leg muscles relax and have no opposing force restricting their movement the rock step is easier to take, thus it can be done faster and more accurately because the movement is allowed to be more free and smooth, this should be true with any initiating step, wether that is a rock step a forward kick, a hop, slide, whatever.. Any initiating muscle that has to be the first to move will be easier faster and more accurately moved if there is no force holding it back or restricting or controlling it's movement and fluidity. Try it the oppsote way and you will see that it becomes very difficult if not impossible.. simple laws of physics yes?? apparantly not as simple when explained in this concept. Now by this I don't mean that movements must not be controlled... on the contrary.. A good dancer is known for having the utmost control of his or her entire body in whatever movement they are attempting from start to finish.. I am simply saying allowing full range of motion with your initiating step.. so perhaps that was the incorrect wording used there.. My apologies.

2. "I'm not sure I understand the disagreement. I'm also not sure I understand the meaning of "work arranged to permit..." unless it's meaning that all effort, or work, should allow an easy and natural rhythm... ? I would agree with that"

Yup that is what I meant, An arrangement of work (a set of movements or moves however you want to say it)should allow an easy and natural rhythm.

Oh and for the record I have only destroyed an entire dancer from the ground up when there is no other way of fixing the problem. and I have taught enough people to know that YES unfortunately I run into them once in a while.. not getting rid of bad habits from the past only makes what you are trying to accomplish an even bigger mess. It is not a cop out, I am far more knowledgable than most people think (I just choose not to go around bragging about it.. no attack intended), and in spite of comments made.. brother I do know what I'm talking about.. I can prove any of the points made if I am asked to do so, and if I feel like it is worth my time.

With that being said California.. I apologize ahead of time if I have offended you in any way with my previous post.. and perhaps you have an area of expertise I am not familiar with.. And if anyone else has questions as to what I meant in my post.. if perhaps my ideas and concepts were to vague or way above your head and you would like further explanation on any of these please don't hesittate to ask. I guess I am out of practice simplifying concepts..

So... Now that we are all friends.. how about we discuss the Ideal stance for Lindy Hop.. and how coordination can help you become a better dancer... GO!!

you're all wrong... especially you, buzz.

Hey good point Irage... I never go dancing without having my ruler and my scientific calculator.. You know for those times when I am trying to stay on beat but I'm doing 6 counts and 8 counts and there's like 48 bpm and like I'm using only 42 then I divide them by 4 and there's like a remainder leftover.. And so on... Yeah I always like bust out my calculator in the middle of the dance and that helps me stay on track.. That way I am never off beat... Hey Roach how about I accentuate your face with my left foot!! Ha ha ha.. Just join in the converstaion dude... Geez!!.. What a bunch of hippies

all i can say is wow. people will develop their own philosphy to dance but it is good to be open to others opinions. you can learn something new almost everytime. some people are into dancing for more serious purposes some are in it to just have fun and some are in it for both. whatever your purpose is just freakin dance man!

Jump in Roach.. jump on in.. Yes thanks Ash.. even thogh I have no idea who you are...

I want to get super good so I can have the most fun possible

Good point POP's me too.. I'm always learning from everyone around me